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Thread: BMW Z3 - Recovering from failed recoloring via Roger the Leather Doctor!!

  1. #1
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    Default BMW Z3 - Recovering from failed recoloring via Roger the Leather Doctor!!

    Here's a very brief history...
    Attempted recoloring w/ another product. Followed instructions, attempted 2-3 times per seat & always had adhesion failure (it removed so easily not much stress on the leather). In my search for adhesion, it led me to Roger the Leather Doctor! Reading a few of his replies assures that this is truly the only way to properly restore leather & that you're working with someone who will help & absolutely qualified to help. The products for the project are en route so...more to come...

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    Hey roger! Here are a few questions about Color/Top coat application:
    (These are from your descriptions page per kit)

    Im in ORANGE
    COLOR COATING:
    Is it a "milky" consistency?
    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    Shake well & filter color before application?
    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    What is considered "dry time between coats"? Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?
    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure? To high, to low PSI, to thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?

    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    Would a gentle "rub-in" w/ a foam brush for first coat help adhesion?
    Does coverage determine how many coats needed?
    Does the Fine dry atomize dispersion cover better, so fewer coats needed?

    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    Fine dry atomize dispersion - explain this technique.
    I sprayed at 25 PSI for ALS color (a bit thicker than "milky" consistancy) & a little less PSI for ALS topcoat (a bit thinner than "milky" consistancy).

    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.
    Indeed spray for coverage w/ light coats until coverage attained.
    Is there a target thickness for color coat?


    TOP COATING:
    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    What is considered "dry time between coats"? Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?

    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure? To high, to low PSI, to thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?
    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    For airbrush app what PSI?
    Filter top coat before application?

    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    Visually dry? Place back of hand to surface & if cold it's still wet??
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.

    Rub-Resistant Protection:
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready
    for use when dry.
    One coat?
    Whats est dry time?

    It's at this point ALS requires(?) 72 hr - no moisture dry/cure time before conditioning or use.

    Wheeew, I sound like a 5 yr old w/ all the questions! Sorry about that but inquiring minds...Thanks

  2. #2
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    Reply in *Green
    Im in ORANGE
    COLOR COATING:
    Is it a "milky" consistency?
    *Pigment-64 has a higher viscosity and Micro-54 has a lower viscosity.
    To achieve the same result example Pigment-64 may takes 2 coating while Micro-54 may take an extra coating or two. When spray on vertical panel flow, drips or streaks may be an issue, thus is overcome with up to 10% of Thickener-48 to the mix especially for Micro-54. Advantage of using Micro-54 is the finer build-up of layers too as chances of producing a plastiky look is drastically reduced.


    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    *Yes, all water-based products are dilute-able with distilled water. Flow control is adjustable with Thicknener-48 up to 10% to the mix to stabilize the colloidal color coating.

    Shake well & filter color before application?
    *Check the bottom of the clear plastic bottle before poring it out or throw in a glass marble to help in the mix.
    Use a nylon stocking to filter through before airbrushing ensures trouble free spraying.


    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    *In case of drips, dust or flies that stick to the drying finishes, pick up with forceps and sand it as necessary, a fine sanding ensure a proper adhesion for the next spray as well. This fine sanding also assure good adhesion, fail adhesion if any will immediately show.

    What is considered "dry time between coats"?
    *When coating is strong enough to take on fine sanding (2000grit) it is dry enough for the next spray.

    Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?
    *A hair dryer helps to facilitate drying by appearance and fine sanding as above as a test for the next spray.

    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure?
    *It is the preparation during “wet” and “dry” phase that may contribute to adhesion failure.
    In your case for redoing fail adhesion using other products, the existing black coloring is to be stripped with Stripper-2.3 down to the original blue coloring. The blue existing finishes is then degrease with Degreaser-2.2 > Rinse-3.0 system and preferably the existing blue finishes is further cut down by sanding, otherwise the additional coloring builds up may too un-natural in appearance.


    Too high, too low PSI, too thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?
    *A higher psi is better to atomize the spray giving a finer spray.
    Too thick a spray is not recommended.
    Facilitating drying with heat dryer recommended between coat – quick and long is not a concern – but drying and sand ability will gives us a good hint that all is well so far as we progress.


    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    Would a gentle "rub-in" w/ a foam brush for first coat help adhesion?
    *Adhesor-73 is the pre-conditioner to color coating and is best done by foam brushing or padding with lint free towel. Rub-in is not necessary as it may produce streaks that make correction ends up too thick. Micro-54 is preferred to reduce unnecessary build-up of color coating. Note that thicker coating will cause more problems on adhesion than a thinner coating.

    Does coverage determine how many coats needed?
    *Depending on product usage as I have introduced Micro-54, coverage is by eyesight and remembering the number of spray to produce consistency throughout. Over coating does not help both in performance and appearance, thus I prefer to use Micro-54.

    Does the Fine dry atomize dispersion cover better, so fewer coats needed?
    *Yes and Micro-54 with an auxiliary mix of Thickener-48 up to 10% helps in the result finesse.

    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    Fine dry atomize dispersion - explain this technique.
    *A standard air gun have flow and air adjustment control knob – reduce intake of product and increase air volume will produce a dryer spray for better fine coverage, thus reduce thickness of overall coatings.

    I sprayed at 25 PSI for ALS color (a bit thicker than "milky" consistancy) & a little less PSI for ALS topcoat (a bit thinner than "milky" consistancy).
    *Too low a pressure does not atomize the product adequately thus becomes too thick and may produce mediocre result both in performance and appearance.

    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.
    Indeed spray for coverage w/ light coats until coverage attained.
    *Make sure that there is a flow in the first coating that it form a continuous film over the Adhesor-73 coating as the foundation.

    Is there a target thickness for color coat?
    *Less and finer, as long as it cover the existing unwanted blue suffice. Unnecessary thickness build up only gives instability to the overall film coating.


    TOP COATING:
    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    *Use MicroTop-54 instead a finer coating with better control for finesses.

    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    *Sanding is to correct surface feel to the touch, any lumps is sand prior to the next coating.

    What is considered "dry time between coats"? Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?
    *Heat blower helps dry time and when coating is strong enough to take on fine sanding (2000grit) it is dry enough for the next spray.

    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure? To high, to low PSI, to thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?
    *Topcoat spraying does not contribute in any way to adhesion failure. Adhesion failure may be due to poor “wet” or “dry” preparation – Degreaser-2.2 > Rinse-30 system will reduce such possibilities. Existing finishes is recommended to cut down with sanding, otherwise unnatural build-up produce poor leather appearance. Next is the rub-in with Adhesor-73 prior to color coating.

    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    For airbrush app what PSI?
    *At a higher psi of 80 to 100 will produce a finer atomization for better coverage with better flow control without streaking especially vertical panels.

    Filter topcoat before application?
    *Use nylon stocking to filter any coagulating if any after a proper shake up with glass marble prior to pouring out of bottle, check the bottom as well.

    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    Visually dry? Place back of hand to surface & if cold it's still wet??
    *Use heat dryer, dries faster, cures faster.
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.

    Rub-Resistant Protection:
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready
    for use when dry.
    One coat?
    *Foam brush to redistribute after spray for even appearance.

    Whats est dry time?
    *Heat blow-dries it and it is ready for use.

    It's at this point ALS requires (?) 72 hr - no moisture dry/cure time before conditioning or use.
    *This is an extra precaution for natural drying; speed heat drying in-between spray coating helps reduce this dry/cure time. Preferably Protector-B+ is applied after the finishes is dry/cured.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-09-2014 at 11:32 AM.

  3. #3
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    Got it. Now about those appliction instructions...
    I'm in green (+)

    Reply in Purple (*)

    Instruction:

    Stripping Existing Deteriorating Finishes:
    1. Cover and tape off frames, trims and protect flooring.
    2. Mist sprays Stripper-2.3, Eraser-4 scrub with help of 2000-grit sandpaper feathering out seamlessly and towel extract for an even appearance.

    + Use the eraser & 2000 grit sandpaper?
    + What is expected?
    * Eraser-4 produces traction power & 2000grit sandpaper produces abrasive power.

    + Is the goal to remove all existing color?
    * Existing color by 2000grit sandpaper removes weakens or deteriorated finishes.
    Ideally is to remove all existing color when there is a desire for color change.
    The reduction of existing finishes allows better Hydrator-3.3 penetration to ease creases and wrinkles; otherwise from the reverse suede side is one possibility. The other advantage of existing finishes reduction with a lower grit sanding device is preventing unnecessary finishes build-up from the leather crust to reduce a unnatural plastiky appearance.


    + If so how to tell if enough is removed?
    * Existing finishes removal is monitor by appearance, before reaching the leather crust.

    + What exactly is feathering out? Feather edge sanding?
    * Feathering out is to reduce contrasting edges so that it merges seamlessly as one.


    Degreasing:
    1. Shake /Degreaser-2.2 to gel prior to use with a repeat shake and rest until it gels.
    2. Transfer to Eraser-4; agitate to saturate the stain, feather out to the entire section.

    + What exactly is feathering out entire section? Feather edge sanding?
    * All most all leather seats are makes out of section or panel and feathering is not necessary to go beyond any section. From case to case, the need to go beyond the section is subjective. A thorough work would be the entire seat as a whole or has to be symmetric at least for appearance.

    3. Towel extracts suspended soiling after 10 to 30 minutes or before it dries until it shows clean.
    + Wait 10-30 min & before it drys wipe to extract until surface is clean?
    * Towels that does not pick up anymore soiling may be a better reference for a complete suspended soil removal until that point.

    4. Spray Acidifier-2.0, towel extract until it shows clean to a healthy squeak.
    + Rinse w/ Acidifier-2.0 & wipe until extracted & surface is clean?
    * Rather check with the towel as well if it does pick up anymore soiling.


    Hydrating:

    + Would this be used for lessening wrinkles, like the bolster of my seat?
    * Your seat at this time looks too plastiky with a too thick a finish, thus not possible the Hydrator-3.3 to penetrate through the finishes. Any liquid that pools on its surface would not reach the leather thickness to lessen any wrinkles.

    1. Spray Hydrator-3.3 saturating the stain area and feather out for an even appearance.
    + How’s this done on vertical area?
    * The vertical areas are done with help of stretchable paper towel to act as reservoir for the slow absorption from the leather. Reducing the thickness of the finishes helps in the penetration, if any liquid pools on the surface it is also difficult for the Hydrator-3.3 to penetrate into the leather thickness.

    2. Covering with tissue paper without airspace to trap wick up stains instead of remaining on the leather surface as it dries. 3. Peel tissue paper when crispy dry and use Eraser-4 to erase surface residue prior to fat and oil replenishing.
    + Apply direct to surface leaving no space between…?
    *All airspace between has to be stretch out with horsehair Brush-1 and sufficient moisture level for surface tight contact as an extension of the leather surface.

    “Peel tissue paper when crispy dry”
    + does that mean to remove when completely dry?
    * When stretchable paper is done properly, it will shrink back and tightens its coverage and need to be peel off would also indicates that it is well done for its intended effectiveness.

    “use Eraser-4 to erase surface residue”
    + does that mean: sand lightly w/ eraser to remove excess & smooth surface.
    * It means use only Eraser-4 to erase surface residue if any that may have resurface from the thickness of the leather during the wicking process.


    Fat and Oil Replenishing:
    1. Spray Fatliquor-5.0 and redistribute with foam brush until saturation.
    + Saturation means to cover entire surface completely?
    Fatliquor-5.0 is design for the thickness of the leather structure that is below surface but initially has to go from either the front or the reverse suede side. Certainly it has to cover the entire surface completely, but the surface is only the entry point and should not remain there at all when dry. Any surface remnants have to be completely removed.

    2. Repeat application each time water contents evaporate until fully saturated.
    + If surface dries reapply?
    *Yes, as water contents evaporates leaving the fat and oil behind into the leather structure, more is applied at each evaporation cycle. Leather softness and strength depends on the fat and oil contents up to 14% when completely dry – with a moisture meter to read the moisture content.

    3. Drive remaining surface remnants free of milky fat and oil until it turns clear with Hydrator-3.3.
    “Drive remaining surface remnants free”
    + does that mean: Spray Hydrator-3.3 to saturate & rinse clean?
    * Correct, Hydrator-3.3 will further charge the amphoteric protein fiber ionic positive [+ve] thus creating more sites for the ionic negative [-ve] Fatliquor-5.0 for hydrogen bonding attraction.

    4. Allow natural drying for extra softness.
    + Let it air dry? Est how long?
    * How long is a subject of psychometrics – relative humidity, amount of water in the air, methods of drying.
    Practical experience is by observing appearance of the leather; pre-rejuvenating appearance, during appearance and drying appearance should goes back to pre-rejuvenating appearance. Natural air movement will helps facilitate drying, but again the slower the drying the softer is the leather from experience.


    More to come...

  4. #4
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    Dry Prep:

    1. Erase wick-up residue with Eraser-4 prior to repairs.
    +Should surface be completely dry before repairing/coloring?
    +Any other surface cleaning before repairing/coloring?

    Structural Repairs:

    1. Apply Impregnator-26 to weak and worn areas for tightening and restremgthening where necessary.
    +Examples of "Weak & worn areas" & where this is neccesary.
    +How is this applied?
    +Dry time?
    +Any other surface cleaning before coloring?

    Adhesion Promotion Coating:

    1. Apply Adhesor-73 by foam brush to seal surface uneven absorption rate and promote adhesion simultaneously.
    +Apply everywhere color coat is being applied?
    +Minimum dry time before color coat?

    Color Coating:

    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.
    +How many coats is recomended?
    +Dry time between coats?
    +2000 grit sanding between coats?

    Topcoating:

    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    +Same PSI as coloring?
    +Filter mix before application?
    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    +Wipe surface w/ lint free towel to level & remove drips/streaks?
    +2000 grit sanding ok?
    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.
    +After all coats are applied & dry?

    Rub-Resistant Protection:

    +Wait how long after coloring application to apply?
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready for use when dry.
    +How many coats?
    +Apply additional coats to high friction/rub area?

  5. #5
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    Reply in '* purple'

    Dry Prep:

    1. Erase wick-up residue with Eraser-4 prior to repairs.

    +Should surface be completely dry before repairing/coloring?
    * Surface is preferably completely dry as not to reduce the strength of any water-based products.

    +Any other surface cleaning before repairing/coloring?
    * Surface cleaning as necessary is in conjunction with sanding and Stripper-2.3 to reduce existing unwanted finishes, otherwise the additional build-up may have a “plasticky” appearance away from the natural grain of the leather already observed.


    Structural Repairs:

    1. Apply Impregnator-26 to weak and worn areas for tightening and restremgthening where necessary.
    +Examples of "Weak & worn areas" & where this is neccesary.
    * Existing pictures does not show any “weak and worn areas”.

    +How is this applied?
    * Direct application with help of horsehair Brush-1 to drive the product in beneath the surface and into the leather structure.

    +Dry time?
    * Heat blower helps facilitate fast drying.

    +Any other surface cleaning before coloring?
    * To prevent any surface buildup a damp towel wipe off any surface remnants. Heat blower dries it and fine sanding before Adhesor-73 application.


    Adhesion Promotion Coating:

    1. Apply Adhesor-73 by foam brush to seal surface uneven absorption rate and promote adhesion simultaneously.

    +Apply everywhere color coat is being applied?
    * Correct, this is both an adhesion coating as well as sealing the leather surface for even porosity.

    +Minimum dry time before color coat?
    * Heat blower to facilitate drying – when surface is sandable it is coatable.


    Color Coating:

    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.

    +How many coats are recommended?
    * Coatings depend on how wet or dry is the application – less is better as long as it produce an even appearance of good coverage. Thickener-48 recommended for adjusting viscosity and controlling flow during airbrushing.

    +Dry time between coats?
    * Heat blower facilitates drying time and as long as it is sandable, it is coatable.

    +2000 grit sanding between coats?
    This fine grit is recommended to control


    Topcoating:

    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    +Same PSI as coloring?
    * Increase PSI for a lower viscosity product to maintain the same atomization.

    +Filter mix before application?
    * Filter mix to catch any duller not properly dissolved with standard paint filter or nylon stocking.

    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    +Wipe surface w/ lint free towel to level & remove drips/streaks?
    * Accidental drips from sprayer is blot with lint free paper towel from kit.

    +2000 grit sanding ok?
    * 2000grit sanding is suitable for in-between coating feel adjustment or correction.

    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.
    +After all coats are applied & dry?
    * Sanding in-between coats, final coat not recommended.


    Rub-Resistant Protection:

    +Wait how long after coloring application to apply?
    * May be applied with the same duration of drying time as of precedent coating.

    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready for use when dry.
    +How many coats?
    * Depends on wetness of coating, foam brush or lint free towel helps spread for even distribution.

    +Apply additional coats to high friction/rub area?
    * Apply after existing coating is dry. Thereafter the seat is ready to use when dry to the touch.



    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-14-2014 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #6
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    Is there anything you recommend to use on "high" friction/rub areas(the bolsters top & bottom of both seats) to help maintain their "integrity"? I was thinking to add an additional coat of Rub-Resistant Protection, top coat or structural repair(even though no worn areas exist) to help as precautionary.

  7. #7
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    Rub-Resistant Protection with Protector-B+ is a continuous maintenance process, done routinely to reduce wear to the topcoat that protects the colorcoat.

    Topcoat is applied during refinishing or on periodic maintenance where it shows wear due to neglect.

    Structural repair is only possible where there is structural weakness due to overstretching, this product Imprenator-26 is not to be remain on the surface but totally removed prior to Adhesor-73.

  8. #8
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    Gothca, I was hoping to protect those areas from the day to days. Regular & proper care is essential to longevity. Ooh, that's good to hear top coat can be applied for touch up repairs.
    Lastly, would you "rub resist" when conditioning is needed? We're in Utah, pretty high & dry so upkeep conditioning is every cpl months.

  9. #9
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    >>> Gothca, I was hoping to protect those areas from the day to days. Regular & proper care is essential to longevity.

    A good indication is to compare the buttery-feel of the constant surface contact areas to areas that does not come to contact. A smooth buttery-feel reduces friction noises both by fingertips feeling and by ear and that translate to less wear. Only need to reapply on those wear areas to balance up.



    >>> Lastly, would you "rub resist" when conditioning is needed? We're in Utah, pretty high & dry so upkeep conditioning is every cpl months.

    “Rub-resist” protection (Protector-B+) is referring to surface conditioning and this is done on a routine basis as the protection wears off.
    Conditioning of the moisture contents (Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0) refers to the thickness of the leather and this is done during a longer periodic care program. Perhaps half yearly-to-yearly less frequent basis and mainly concentrating on more vulnerable parts of the leather especially the stitching rows where evaporation takes place.
    When leather moisture contents diminishes through these stitching holes the holes becomes elongated and with further stress split or cracks with loss of tensile-stitch-tear-strength.

    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com

  10. #10
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    Received the kits, 1 broken, over tightened lid(one drop spilled) but everything else was fine. I went to work stripping & with the ph cleaning/stripping I've already done seemed to have helped. The stripper should get the job done but, yup, more questions...
    Can I use some acetone w/ stripper to help it along? Maybe even mix 5:1 stripper w/ acetone?
    If you look where the top & bottom of the seat meets, there's a "film" I can peel it off(not easily though) & this seems to be around most edges & corners were it may prove very difficult to remove. If there is prior coloring remaining in those hard to reach/see areas, will that be an issue for micro 54 adhesion?
    When using stripper, how many times per section do you use stripper? I mean is it 1 strip then 1 rinse as many times needed until it wipes clean? Or rinse 3.0 until the rag wipes clean? I can't seem to get a clean wipe...That could take a while...
    I have stripped the bottom part of the seat & the lower center of the top part. What is considered enough removed? The bolsters have some blk still there, is that ok or are those areas stripped enough to proceed?
    How soon after stripping do you need to apply the next step(re-hidration)? Is it unhealthy to wait to long after stripping for re-hidration?
    The seat bolster shows the creases/wrinkles prominently...Will those be lessened? Does Micro color "build" & "hide" blemishes like those?
    Thats it for now...I'm sure more will come up. I'll chat with you then. Any advice is helpful! G
    PS one last thing, in PIC 1 that "film" I mentioned that's peeling, is that the failed coloring I applied & not something I shouldn't be removing, right(leather crust)? I've only lightly sanded w/ 2500 grit.
    Also will you post the pics I sent?

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    #1
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  12. #12
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    Name:  strip 3-20-14b.JPG
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Size:  1.20 MB Here's another pic

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    Continuing on w/ stripping etc & it’s a slow game. I’m not sure the reactions I’m getting from the leather(pic 4). The surface has changed, it’s kind of rough & bumpy in spots now & a lot of edges are very difficult to strip(my stitching is feeling it). Overall I’m pretty confused w/ the process that has me wondering the whole time. I’m to this point barely…Anyways, on w/ the story…The passenger seat is mostly stripped(edges, headrest are left) & the seat bottom was Degreased but not w/ out some issues, which lead to more questions… Does there have to be a stain to degrease or initially should the entire surface be done(I chose to do entire surface for their 1st & only degreasing)? Is this Gelling enough & properly(pic 5)? (Pic 7)I could get about 15-20 seconds of dwell time w/ degreaser before it evaporated (instructions say leave 10-30 min or until dry..?? To compensate (blindly) I would pat the surface w/ the eraser(very handy little tool) that had degreaser on it to keep surface moist/wet long enough for the “chemical reaction” to take place, not sure it ever did but…I rinsed w/ acidifier & tried to keep it dwelling for the suggested 10-30 min but that whole liquid evaporating thing came up again. Kept it pretty wet w/ the eraser pat for a good 15 min but, again, not sure about chemical reaction happening. So I wiped it w/ a shot of rinse 3.0 & packed it up for a few hrs. I’m not looking forward to the “wait until it’s crispy dry to remove” technique but I gather it’s the only hope for saving my aged looking bolsters…Wish me luck…I think I’ll need some! Name:  1 DRIVERS BOLSTER WRINCKLES-CREASE-BADa.jpg
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  14. #14
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    >>> more questions...


    >>> Can I use some acetone w/ stripper to help it along? Maybe even mix 5:1 stripper w/ acetone?


    Yes, you may.


    >>> If you look where the top & bottom of the seat meets,

    * It would help where to look if you put a description to the pictures or a reference to the picture.


    >>> there's a "film" I can peel it off (not easily though) & this seems to be around most edges & corners were it may prove very difficult to remove.

    * I would remove all entirely including the blue finishing to the leather crust and rebuild from there.


    >>> If there is prior coloring remaining in those hard to reach/see areas, will that be an issue for micro 54 adhesion?


    * It should not be an issue when Adhesor-73 is prior applied, but piling on existing finishing is not ideal and is not recommended.


    >>> When using stripper, how many times per section do you use stripper? I mean is it 1 strip then 1 rinse as many times needed until it wipes clean? Or rinse 3.0 until the rag wipes clean? I can't seem to get a clean wipe...That could take a while...


    * Stripping is done with direct spray and working with a stiffer brush like nubuck Brush-2 with immediate result to the leather crust.


    >>> I have stripped the bottom part of the seat & the lower center of the top part. What is considered enough removed?

    * All these pictures only shows work in progress, enough removed would include the blue finishes being removed until we can partially see the leather crust.


    >>> The bolsters have some blk still there, is that ok or are those areas stripped enough to proceed?
    * Surprise you call these stripping!


    >>> How soon after stripping do you need to apply the next step(re-hidration)? Is it unhealthy to wait to long after stripping for re-hidration?

    * You are far away from rehydration, until the blue finishes is partially removed.


    >>> The seat bolster shows the creases/wrinkles prominently...Will those be lessened?


    * With the finishes still intact there is no way to work out the creases / wrinkles – the leather has to be at least semi-absorbent to a degree for Hydrator-3.3 to relax it.


    >>> Does Micro color "build" & "hide" blemishes like those?


    * Micro pigment is a fine light coating that does not turn natural grains appears plasticky.


    >>> PS one last thing, in PIC 1 that "film" I mentioned that's peeling, is that the failed coloring I applied & not something I shouldn't be removing, right(leather crust)? I've only lightly sanded w/ 2500 grit.

    * “The color film difficult to remove” should be all evenly removed to the leather crust.

  15. #15
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    Please post a picture number to your post number 12 for easy reference.

    Anyway, you are still at step 1 - stripping with mentioned products and help of a stiffer nubuck Brush-2 into the groves.

    Concentrate one step at a time!
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-21-2014 at 07:47 PM.

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    That's quit discouraging to find out at this point the job is far from done. It's understood now & the project needs to be completed but, yet again, more info of the process is definitely needed. Here goes....I haven't had any of the blue come close to being stripped off (no evidence from using stripper & rinsing, a bit of blue when sanding 2500 grit) but if the blue is to be removed, then the black portions need the same degree of removal, to the leather crust, right? Sounds pretty delicate, I'm not even sure what that is, the leather crust. How do you know when you've reached it? What are signs of safe removal? What are signs of damage or to much removal? Will the blue & black areas be a lighter shade when stripping is successful? Would sanding w/ 2000-2500+acetone at this point(the starting point) be the quickest but a safe way? Can acetone be mixed/deluded w/ something to be safer(or is it safe as is?) for this & not as aggressive? Would a rinse 3.0 after each acetone app be correct? Or rinse 3.0 after an area is completely stripped using acetone? I'll wait to proceed until I hear back from you. Thanks for the aid with this, the need is greater than ever...

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    >>> Can I use some acetone w/ stripper to help it along? Maybe even mix 5:1 stripper w/ acetone?

    Yes, you may try any combination strong enough to removed the blue finishes with the help of a stiffer nylon nubuck Brush-2.

    Leave all other questions aside until the above is a breakthrough.

  18. #18
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    Well this was far more involved than I thought, acetone is great for this but way tedious, evaporates in seconds..The blue began to wipe off & the black was not the black I applied & wiping lighter & lighter. I think that means the clear is gone. Anyways, I can't strip more from this seat(I have 3 more to go..OMG!!). I guess that means on to the next step...Degrease? But how could any grease remain..? No spots at all so...Ready for the nName:  FRONT  DONE STRIP D.jpg
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    In review, the seats probably are not as stripped as suggested. The problem is I do not know what the "leather crust" is or the color/condition the leather should be when the crust is revealed. I've read that just the original clear needs removal for recoloring can begin. If all of existing color needs removal, that could be to much to finish.

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    After hrs & hrs & hundreds of paper towels & a lot of acetone, I got them to this point....Which is to the recoloring stage..It was a busy night! I did the steps proceeding coloring, stripping as much as I could do(PIA, PIA, PIA, PIA!!!). Then some degreasing(still don't know if the chemical reactions happened or not) + a cpl acid baths. Then the Hydrate stage, which was about 3 hrs dwell but only the bolster was covered(tricky to set up & difficult to know if done properly) the rest of the seat got a 10 min dwell hydrate which led to...Finally adding some fat. I did 2 fat apps to help it saturate better(please clarify how long the dwell time is before the rehydrate rinse??) which made it softer & feel much better but I then read: "with a moisture meter to read the moisture content". I couldn't do this, I don't have one so I hope it's not to important to the process. And then a wipe down w/ a 3rd rehydrate step & that would lead to recoloring(how much distilled water can be mixed w/ Micro color & Micro top coat? 10%? I will need to stretch these out to make this happen..no room for errors...1 kit=1 seat
    Anyways, I attached pics of the waiting seat & would like to hear back if she looks ready (eerr ready enough) to go...?
    More ?'s...Thickener, how much is 10% by weight? How many adhesor coats are recommended? Color coats? Top coats? Would a rub in of the first color coat w/ sponge brush help adhesion?
    Thanks & hope to hear from ya today? G
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  21. #21
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    From pictures, it still looks that you are still in step #1 - stripping with sanding combination to reduce the blue finishes.

  22. #22
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    I was trying to pull a fast one(harry carry smiley face insert here)..Hows the latest iteration? Yes, progress but what I need to know what to look for in terms of surface texture, coloring, a sign as to stripped enough or to the leather crust..Please, maybe a picture of some you've done? A before and after would really help me gauge this. Looking ahead, as I often do, when I reach the desired level of removal, just follow your instructions to finish? I would imagine but I never imagined the stripping involved so...Also the questions I've asked would you reply to these tonight? Just the last cpl post because I can see another late one & don't want to get hung up on another issue. I really need these (a total of 4 seats) done here soon so a little help with that suggestions & I'm set. I'll keep you posted. Thnx
    PS I almost forgot & this may seem obvious but does the black need same degree of stripping as the blue?
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    Last edited by shelbynook; 03-24-2014 at 04:42 PM.

  23. #23
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    Good to see your progress!

    Keep it up!

    From the first picture, the dept or the lighter is good enough.

    Only work on the blue to even out the appearance.

    Understand to remove is tougher but is still the most important step.

    Show picture before you move on to the next step.

    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant.
    www.LeatherDoctor.com

  24. #24
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    Hey there! So I just added the fat & finished w/ a Hydrate rinse. Of course the proceeding steps after stripping were done also, except degrease, I had done that twice before. Recoloring (adhesor, coloring, top coat are next. To reiterate, is it recommended that any of those be deluded w/ distilled water? Maybe 10%? I need as much product as possible for any probs that may arise...For the top coat gloss level, whats the best way to test whatever ratio is mixed? I like the gloss in the first pics, the ones showing the drips on the bolsters..What ratio...? I have 2 gloss & 1 dull 60ml each. Apply adhesor w/ foam brush0? I'm ready, I think, let me know if the seats are. Thnx
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  25. #25
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    Show picture before you move on to the next step, we are still on stripping am I right?

    Need to check and inspect what is done is right, otherwise problem can be compounded.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-25-2014 at 03:39 PM.

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    The set of pics before these last 3 pics are the "evened" out blue areas & what I thought was completed. Please let me know if more stripping is needed...These last set of pics are the most recent but hydrating & fatliquoring seem to darken the leather thus hiding the signs of stripping & a crap set of pics from my phn doesnt help. I would like to finish these tonight(10pm - 4am MST is when I get the most work done). So if possible get back to me asap w/ any advice. Thnx
    Here is the latest level of stripping.
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    Last edited by shelbynook; 03-25-2014 at 07:54 PM.

  27. #27
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    >>> Please let me know if more stripping is needed...

    A more even prep appearance will help in color coverage with less coating.
    I think it can be further improves.

    Tips:
    A stiff nylon brush helps to remove better from the groves.
    Sanding too much hurts into the grain.


    For the subsequent process follow what we have already discussed and stick to it to produce the best result with good adhesion.

  28. #28
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    I will hit it a cpl more time for a more even surface but I haven't sanded at all. The acetone evaporates to fast. Ive just used paper towells soaked w/ acetone until it clogs then another, then another...Before you go, how about the color & top coat...Can you add 10% distilled water? Adhesor is applied w/ a foam brush? May or may not get to coloring tonight, I'm gonna try. Thnx, I'll let y know by morning

  29. #29
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    >>> The acetone evaporates too fast.

    The kit comes with Stripper-2.3 and is best work with a stiff nylon detailing Brush-2 produces the best result.


    >>> how about the color & top coat...Can you add 10% distilled water?


    This subject has already been discussed. Micro-54 is best spray as it is with a mix of 10% Thickener-48 for flow control.


    Tips
    Fatliquor-5.0 as already discuss is meant to below surface any residue has to be removed off with Hydrator-3.3 prior to Adhesor-73.

  30. #30
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    So I've found something else to stall the addition of color...I was going to remove the drivers seat but the seat is positioned over the bolts & if the battery is hooked & pass seat not wired in, airbag light sends me to the dealer...So I wanted to try the hydrate cover on the wrinkled bolsters for a cpl days but(uuh ooh) clarification is needed. The pic shows the "air tight" covers i rigged..To keep it snug can you weight it down? Is a paper towel needed when hydrating or can it be just the tight, clear wrap directly on the leather? It seemed that perhaps the paper towel helped in the evaporation, maybe not. Maybe I really want these to heal because they look bad compared to the other clean areas & want this to work. Next, can other "stages" be done the same way to avoid evaporation? The degrease gel evaporates in about 40 seconds & recommended dwell is 5-30min, same w/ acidifier which had the same 40 second evap time. 10% by wieght(7oz for the thickener??? 600ml for the color???) means...How much thickener, 1/2 bottle, 3/4? A hint? I'm running out of stock, 3/4 hydrate, 3/4 rinse, 1 fat 1 1/4 acidifier, 1.5 degrease...Last dumb ? None of these materials can be skipped when doing this correct? Can one be used in place of another? K that was 2 dumb ?'s I'm on the brink, so let me know soon...Thnx
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  31. #31
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    Please ask simple questions based on what we have already discuss for a quick response.

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    Sorry about that I tend to ramble...
    1) Is paper towel needed or can it be done like the picture? It just dawned on me that the paper towel is for stains in the leather. None here, I'm just hoping it lessens the wrinkles etc. Can I weight it down to aid the air tightness? It's tough keeping the plastic to stay flush w/ the bolster? Can this "covering" technique be done with the degrease/acidifier stage? Or with any app that has dwell time?
    2) How much of the little bottle of thickener would I add to the Micro, half the little bottle, 3/4 of the little bottle? Please don't say 10% by weight...Please
    3) I'm running low on important components, namely hydrate & rinse...Can I substitute any materials for one an other if I run out?
    The passenger lies in wait for coloring...Just wanted get the drivers side started. Thnx
    Last edited by shelbynook; 03-26-2014 at 09:59 PM.

  33. #33
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    Please show more details high resolution pictures - helps you see better!



    >>> 1) Is paper towel needed or can it be done like the picture?


    Paper towel (stretchable from kit) acts as reservoir to contain the Hydrator-3.3 save time attending and can be left alone so that the leather will absorbed from them. It is recommended to seal with cling wrapper to control evaporation. The high transparency of the food cling wrapper allows observation and as the paper turns whitish more Hydrator-3.3 is applied. The hydrating result in plumping the leather structure ease the manipulating or massaging the unnatural creases or wrinkles, just like a cardboard that is crush will take more hydrating to relax prior to retaining the shape. Removing the existing finishes will help in this process.


    >>> It just dawned on me that the paper towel is for stains in the leather. None here,


    Paper acts as reservoir as explain above, other than for stain “reverse transfer”.



    >>> I'm just hoping it lessens the wrinkles etc.

    This leather-safe system (pH 3-5) does not work by magic, hope or wishes but by science and logic, depends on the absorbency of the leather (finishes obstruction), depends on the severity of the unnatural creases or wrinkles just like crush cardboard it will still takes time to relax it, up to 72 hours if it is performed optimally.


    >>> Can I weight it down to aid the air tightness?

    There is no need to weight it down; stretching the paper towel with horsehair Brush-1 is commonly practice without any airspace in between that becomes an extension of the leather surface.


    >>> It's tough keeping the plastic to stay flush w/ the bolster? Can this "covering" technique be done with the degrease/acidifier stage? Or with any app that has dwell time?

    Plastic sheet is too rigid, use the kitchen food cling wrapper instead.


    >>> Can this "covering" technique be done with the degrease/acidifier stage? Or with any app that has dwell time?

    This paper and plastic combination is a universal application and is applicable for all application that benefits from dwell-time.



    >>> 2) How much of the little bottle of thickener would I add to the Micro, half the little bottle, 3/4 of the little bottle? Please don't say 10% by weight...Please

    The weight of the Micro-54 is 60ml, the weight of the Thickener-48 is 7ml, what left on the bottle may take up to 1 ml – thus the ratio is just right at 10%.


    >>> 3) I'm running low on important components, namely hydrate & rinse...Can I substitute any materials for one another if I run out?

    These products are not design to substitute each other, if so then this leather-safe system makes no sense.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-27-2014 at 01:02 PM.

  34. #34
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    All steps used "paper and plastic combo" w/ Hydrate dwelling for 36hrs. Plump & full, it seems to have "filled" out the wrinkles/creases. I'm very excited due to the outcome, would be nice had it done more but overall, quit happy. No more stalling the coloring, mainly cause I have no more "paper and plastic combo" jobs to finish on the either seat so more to come soon..The Glad wrap I used worked well, really keeps it pretty air tight...FYIName:  glad press n seal.JPG
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  35. #35
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    Fatliquor-5.0 should follow while the leather is saturated with Hydrator-3.3.

    Use the foam brush to control application.

    The paper and cling wrapper technique may apply as well on a periodic basis.

    Remember that moisture need to get out while fatliquor needs to get in during this transition period.

  36. #36
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    This is 30 min after a Hydro 36 hr dwell, fat saturating foam/brush 1 app. Does it look about right? What followed was a hydro drive out milkies rinse.
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  37. #37
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    Keep repeating about 2 hours duration as the water contents evaporates more Fatliquor-5.0 should be absorbed.

    Tips:
    This is about the only time in the lifespan of the leather that allows efficient application of Fatliquor-5.0, so make full use of this opportunity to plump up the leather to the utmost satisfaction.

  38. #38
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    When you say "keep repeating" that means apply Fat evenly until completely absorbed & waters evaporated then reapply in 2 hrs until desired plumpness(!!) is reached...? I didn't know that & also I'm lowest on hydrate(1/4 bottle) but I did apply a test on the bolster & it looks real nice. There is a visible pattern of the leather condition just before coloring but only at certain angles. A cpl dents are noticeable at angles but now a leather grain is also visible. Again pleasantly surprised at the outcome & ready to finish these but...That one little area too nearly 1/2 the bottle, about 7-8 coats, 7-8 very very thin coats. It seems to spry thin & at 80PSi shoots kind of misty...difficult to spray on thick. I think I got proper/complete coverage but need better lighting to clarify. Crappy pics don't help either. Anyways, what do you think? Look ok? I'm anxious to keep going...Any advice or changes to make? A few VERY important questions...Can you color over cured top coat? Can you top coat over cured top coat? Any surface prep needed? What is a way to test for adhesion? Tape test? Thnx again!
    7-8 coats Micro 54 blk:
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    Last edited by shelbynook; 03-29-2014 at 07:58 PM.

  39. #39
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    >>> A few VERY important questions...Can you color over cured topcoat?

    If the topcoat is sandable (you will see whitish powder), after an Ahesor-73 coating proceed with color than follows with topcoat and finally with Protector-B+.


    >>> Can you topcoat over cured topcoat?

    It depends on previous application if crosslinker is used may proves uncoatable, otherwise remove by sanding prior to topcoat.


    Note:

    Pictures shown is of poor resolution, not possible to commend.

  40. #40
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    What is your comment on the following pictures – are they up to your expectation?

    #1. 7-8 coats Micro 54 black:

    #2. 2 coats Gloss

    #3. 2 gloss 1 dull

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