Has Meguiars APC ruined my leather?

[petehatz]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, I cleaned my vehicle's interior with Meguiars All Purpose Cleaner D101. The product says it is safe to use on all surfaces including leather. I diluted it to around 10:1 or 8:1, then used some mechanical scrubbing to clean the leather, and followed up with Duragloss Leather Conditioner. I now understand that almost all modern leather in automotive applications is coated and that the leather conditioner with mink oils etc are pointless.

Meguiars product claims:
"Ideal for reconditioning all interior surfaces. The superior foaming action gently lifts the dirt away while its unique blend of fabric softeners and optical brighteners enhance the look and feel of carpet, upholstery and even leather." and "Meguiar's® D101 Detailer All Purpose Cleaner is a versatile cleaner for both exterior and interior surfaces. Its superior foaming action gently lifts the dirt away from carpet, upholstery, vinyl and even leather. Ideal for reconditioning most interior surfaces Active foaming action lifts dirt Fabric softeners enhance luxurious results."

My leather has "brightened", faded and looks terrible since using the Meguiars APC. I also did a dye transfer test this morning using some liquid and a yellow microfibre cloth and have dye transfer onto the cloth and my hand (see pictures attached). I'm unsure whether there is any way to restore these, short of having them recoloured and coated or just getting them retrimmed in aftermarket leather and starting over.

I've read some of Roger's information and have been in touch with him and I understand the use of a pH 2.0 acidifier may stop the bleeding, but even still, I don't know that the depth of colour or lustre could ever be restored to my seats :-(

I also live in Australia and so getting a hold of these products is both difficult and expensive. I'm wondering whether you might have any suggestions or advice?

here is the SDS for Meguiars APC D101 (pH of 13 :-|):

https://www.meguiars.com/sites/defau...D101%20SDS.pdf

I also contacted Meguiars about the fact they recommend this cleaner to be safe on leather and although I questioned that due to my experience and the pH level of the product, this was their response:

We have now received a response from Meguiar’s Inc Senior Global Product and Training Specialist regarding your pH questions.

"Hi Peter,

Many thanks for your ongoing understanding regarding this matter. We have now received a response from Meguiar’s Inc Senior Global Product and Training Specialist regarding your pH questions.

pH is the measure of hydrogen ions attached to water molecules in an aqueous solution. In short - you can only measure the pH of a water based solution. Not solvent based solutions and not solids. Hence, our solvent based products do not show a pH value on their supporting SDS documentation. And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions.

pH alone is not a full indicator of how “dangerous” or how “powerful” any product is. The use of D101 APC on a variety of interior surfaces is very common, with only the rarest of issues, mostly from user error. We would never recommend using D108 Super Degreaser on these same interior surfaces (especially leather) even though both have a pH of 13. It’s the rest of the ingredients that make these very different products. Further, G95, Hot Rims Wheel & Tire Cleaner also has a pH of 13, but is yet again a vastly different type of product, one that nobody would ever consider using on any interior surface. So in reality, pH is almost a meaningless reason to consider avoiding, or using any product."

I have attached some images of the seats below, they have a leather conditioner applied to them which did seem to make some temporary change to the finish, but wears off quickly when sitting on them, which you can see by the difference between the passenger and drivers side (opposite to you here in Australia). P.s I did not use the Leatherique Rejuvenating product on the floor.

I also cleaned my plastic trims and vinyl which the APC also made them dull, brighten and leave some white residue, but since this is a leather specific forum, I'll concentrate on that issue first :-)

Many many thanks for your valuable insights and information.

Warmest regards
Peter

[ATTACH=CONFIG]

[Roger Koh]

>>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions.

Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.


>>> pH alone is not a full indicator of how “dangerous” or how “powerful” any product is.

Do we know that leather is an amphoteric material and is pH sensitive with a pH neutral of 3 to 5?
Do we know that leather denatures when in contact with an alkaline solution above pH 7 (even with tap water will create rings on unprotected leathers when protection developed micro crazing or seep into stitching seams? The breaking of hydrogen bonds takes place, and the dyestuff in this case leached out. Why? Because the alkaline solution charges the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber ionic negative (-ve). Almost all leather constituents are ionic negative (-ve), behaving like a magnet ‘like poles repels’. The leather denatures, even to the extent that deteriorated the leather finishes turning tacky with a wet test of our fingertips. When frequent use any alkaline solution you will see the needle holes will develop splits, and the leather stiff out, the fatliquor has broken hydrogen bonds with the leather protein fiber and the leather revert back to rawhide. These are a few of my observations.


>>> So in reality, pH is almost a meaningless reason to consider avoiding, or using any product."

Do a test yourself just using any pH value above 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 on a variety of leather goods and see the result. On the reverse, use pH value 1.5 (CleanPro-1.5), pH value 2 (Acidifier-2.0), pH value 3 (Cleaner-3.0), pH value 3.3 (Hydrator-3.3), etc. And observed the rejuvenation of the leather or the denaturing of the leather. Google search pH Calculator to understand the pH neutrality of leather (3-5) versus the pH value of products you use, you will find it meaningful to avoid alkaline solutions above pH value 7.

Wonder, why some leather cleaning products warn of not using on suede? You can take a look at the cross-section of your leather to see where suede begins, micro-crazing becomes suede, and needle holes are open suede.

Simply ask if leather products can be used on suede, if the answer is no, do not use it!

Remember, all the stitching needle holes, perforated holes, micro-crazing of protected leathers are suede, that easily stiff up and cracks with constant alkaline over exposure.




Roger Koh
Leather Care System Formulator
Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor / Coach
web: www.leatherdoctor.com
forum: www.leathercleaningrestorationforum.com
email: [email protected],
email: [email protected]
WhatsApp: +639467037976

[Roger Koh]

Here is a cut and copy info about Perforated Auto Seat . . . and the leather problem-solving matrix . . .

Leather-perforated car seats are easily recognizable by the tiny holes placed at regular intervals, which add pattern and texture to the leather. The leather becomes breathable and sitting comfort increases as air easily flows through it. However, the cross-section of the perforated holes is raw suede. Leather-safe (pH 3 – 5) system products are specially formulated for these pH-sensitive leathers to free the perforations from clogging and cracking thus preserving their appearance, breathability, and sitting comfort. Hydrating and fatliquor (ionic negative charged fat and oil) replenishing these perforated leathers at periodic intervals ensures long-term suppleness that prevents leather stiffness, creasing, and cracking.



You can find system care kits for perforated leathers from this link . . .
https://leatherdoctor.com/leather-pe...seat-care-kit/

[petehatz]

Dear Roger,

A very informative and educational post! The issue now is, how does one decide whether a leather product is too far gone to be saved? Once the colour looks like it's been bleached, can the dark finish and lustre return with returned neutrality of the leather and consequent rejuvenation? OR is it simply a case of preventing further denaturing and being left with what you have?

Many thanks
Peter

>>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions.

Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.


>>> pH alone is not a full indicator of how “dangerous” or how “powerful” any product is.

Do we know that leather is an amphoteric material and is pH sensitive with a pH neutral of 3 to 5?
Do we know that leather denatures when in contact with an alkaline solution above pH 7 (even with tap water will create rings on unprotected leathers when protection developed micro crazing or seep into stitching seams? The breaking of hydrogen bonds takes place, and the dyestuff in this case leached out. Why? Because the alkaline solution charges the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber ionic negative (-ve). Almost all leather constituents are ionic negative (-ve), behaving like a magnet ‘like poles repels’. The leather denatures, even to the extent that deteriorated the leather finishes turning tacky with a wet test of our fingertips. When frequent use any alkaline solution you will see the needle holes will develop splits, and the leather stiff out, the fatliquor has broken hydrogen bonds with the leather protein fiber and the leather revert back to rawhide. These are a few of my observations.


>>> So in reality, pH is almost a meaningless reason to consider avoiding, or using any product."

Do a test yourself just using any pH value above 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 on a variety of leather goods and see the result. On the reverse, use pH value 1.5 (CleanPro-1.5), pH value 2 (Acidifier-2.0), pH value 3 (Cleaner-3.0), pH value 3.3 (Hydrator-3.3), etc. And observed the rejuvenation of the leather or the denaturing of the leather. Google search pH Calculator to understand the pH neutrality of leather (3-5) versus the pH value of products you use, you will find it meaningful to avoid alkaline solutions above pH value 7.

Wonder, why some leather cleaning products warn of not using on suede? You can take a look at the cross-section of your leather to see where suede begins, micro-crazing becomes suede, and needle holes are open suede.

Simply ask if leather products can be used on suede, if the answer is no, do not use it!

Remember, all the stitching needle holes, perforated holes, micro-crazing of protected leathers are suede, that easily stiff up and cracks with constant alkaline over exposure.




Roger Koh
Leather Care System Formulator
Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor / Coach
web: www.leatherdoctor.com
forum: www.leathercleaningrestorationforum.com
email: [email protected],
email: [email protected]
WhatsApp: +639467037976

[petehatz]

Here is a cut and copy info about Perforated Auto Seat . . . and the leather problem-solving matrix . . .

Leather-perforated car seats are easily recognizable by the tiny holes placed at regular intervals, which add pattern and texture to the leather. The leather becomes breathable and sitting comfort increases as air easily flows through it. However, the cross-section of the perforated holes is raw suede. Leather-safe (pH 3 – 5) system products are specially formulated for these pH-sensitive leathers to free the perforations from clogging and cracking thus preserving their appearance, breathability, and sitting comfort. Hydrating and fatliquor (ionic negative charged fat and oil) replenishing these perforated leathers at periodic intervals ensures long-term suppleness that prevents leather stiffness, creasing, and cracking.



You can find system care kits for perforated leathers from this link . . .
https://leatherdoctor.com/leather-pe...seat-care-kit/

p.s my leather is non perforated.. those side pieces are only a pattern not actual holes :-)

[Roger Koh]

>>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions

Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.

See this Leather pH Meter as an example that leather pH value is measurable . . .

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10790

[petehatz]

thanks Roger! I also submitted another reply yesterday but doesnt look like it's been posted. Not sure what's happened there.

>>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions

Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.

See this Leather pH Meter as an example that leather pH value is measurable . . .

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10790

[Roger Koh]

>>> A very informative and educational post! The issue now is, how does one decide whether a leather product is too far gone to be saved? Once the colour looks like it's been bleached, can the dark finish and lustre return with returned neutrality of the leather and consequent rejuvenation? OR is it simply a case of preventing further denaturing and being left with what you have?

There are two parts to the leather, 1, Struture and 2, Finishes and in this case both need to restore accordingly.
Structure has to be pH neutralized to return the leather to it pH neutral of 3-5. Without a pH meter how do we know its pH balanced to its pH neutrality with CleanPro-1.5 and Acidifier-2.0. The wet feel of the finger tips will shift from a tacky feel to a squeaky feel. This process only is good enough by feel of hands. You could take a scrap piece of leather and do a test with your Meguiars APC and follow up with pH balancing with CleanPro-1.5 > Acidifier-2.0 to your satisfaction prior to your actual project. (note the product suffix number reprersents its pH value).
The appearance will need a color refinishing, we can further discuss the how about.

>>> p.s my leather is non perforated.. those side pieces are only a pattern not actual holes :-)

Alright, the stitching holes are considered perforated to a degree, unless your seats has no seams or needle holes in a general sense. An example of a protected or coated leather is no more so when micro-crazing develops, and has to be treated as perforated leathers or unfinished leathers too.

[petehatz]

given the leather was cleaned with the APC around 6-8 weeks ago, wouldnt the pH have started changing by now? Without the meter you could potentially risk changing pH too far the other way with acidic products right?

a white vinegar solution is around a pH of 2-3, that should in theory IF the actual pH of my specific leather is too high, bring it back close to neutrality right?

>>> A very informative and educational post! The issue now is, how does one decide whether a leather product is too far gone to be saved? Once the colour looks like it's been bleached, can the dark finish and lustre return with returned neutrality of the leather and consequent rejuvenation? OR is it simply a case of preventing further denaturing and being left with what you have?

There are two parts to the leather, 1, Struture and 2, Finishes and in this case both need to restore accordingly.
Structure has to be pH neutralized to return the leather to it pH neutral of 3-5. Without a pH meter how do we know its pH balanced to its pH neutrality with CleanPro-1.5 and Acidifier-2.0. The wet feel of the finger tips will shift from a tacky feel to a squeaky feel. This process only is good enough by feel of hands. You could take a scrap piece of leather and do a test with your Meguiars APC and follow up with pH balancing with CleanPro-1.5 > Acidifier-2.0 to your satisfaction prior to your actual project. (note the product suffix number reprersents its pH value).
The appearance will need a color refinishing, we can further discuss the how about.

>>> p.s my leather is non perforated.. those side pieces are only a pattern not actual holes :-)

Alright, the stitching holes are considered perforated to a degree, unless your seats has no seams or needle holes in a general sense. An example of a protected or coated leather is no more so when micro-crazing develops, and has to be treated as perforated leathers or unfinished leathers too.

[petehatz]

here is a video I just made of a wet finger test to the worst affected seat using distilled water: https://youtu.be/1ZPPnu4ApYk

>>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions

Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.

See this Leather pH Meter as an example that leather pH value is measurable . . .

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10790

[Roger Koh]

>>> here is a video I just made of a wet finger test to the worst affected seat using distilled water: https://youtu.be/1ZPPnu4ApYk

What are the findings, you wish to share . . . ?

[Roger Koh]

>>> given the leather was cleaned with the APC around 6-8 weeks ago, wouldnt the pH have started changing by now?

Yes!

>>> Without the meter you could potentially risk changing pH too far the other way with acidic products right?

Yes! Otherwise proven products like Acidifier-2.0 is entirely safe for neutralizing alkaline exposure without going out of range to the other direction below pH 2. Note: Acidic overexposure is pH balanced with Basifier-8.8. So Leather Doctor system has developed pH balancing for both acidic and alkaline overexposure to keep the leather pH balanced to its neutral pH of 3 - 5.

>>> a white vinegar solution is around a pH of 2-3, that should in theory IF the actual pH of my specific leather is too high, bring it back close to neutrality right?

Recommend only 'pure' pH without the acidic content. (Empty pH, just like empty distilled water is without other solid dissolved content) Acidifier-2.0 is a pure pH 2.0 value without any acidic characteristic, while CleanPro-1.5 with a pH value of 1.5 has other cleaning surfactant that requires to be rinsed off with either Acidifier-2.0 or Rinse-3.0 with a pH value of 3.

Note: all acids can be diluted to the required pH value, for example to pH 3 value. In a diluted acidic solution all acid types may be able to achieve the same pH value, but the characteristic of each acid type performs differently. And it is the characteristic of the untested or not-proven acid that may cause adverse side effects.

[petehatz]

>>> here is a video I just made of a wet finger test to the worst affected seat using distilled water: https://youtu.be/1ZPPnu4ApYk

What are the findings, you wish to share . . . ?

my observations are that the leather is not tacky, it still squeaks. Also the water was not being absorbed by the leather so there must be some sort of finish or top coating still on the seat?

I'm still not sure whether the leather conditioners etc that I've used will have lowered the pH level after the use of the APC. I am considering using a diluted solution of distilled water and white vinegar (pH 2.5-3) to lower the pH then reapply a conditioner. Hoping that brings the leather back to neutrality and prevents ongoing denaturing.

[petehatz]

my observations are that the leather is not tacky, it still squeaks. Also the water was not being absorbed by the leather so there must be some sort of finish or top coating still on the seat?

I'm still not sure whether the leather conditioners etc that I've used will have lowered the pH level after the use of the APC. I am considering using a diluted solution of distilled water and white vinegar (pH 2.5-3) to lower the pH then reapply a conditioner. Hoping that brings the leather back to neutrality and prevents ongoing denaturing.

I did not see your previous message, about the pure pH product, so the vinegar solution is probably not a good idea then haha! I thought I'd come up with a quick and cheap solution I could implement straight away

[petehatz]

I did not see your previous message, about the pure pH product, so the vinegar solution is probably not a good idea then haha! I thought I'd come up with a quick and cheap solution I could implement straight away

my other thought was to utilise the pH down product from my old aquarium and the tester strips with distilled water to make a solution that meets the correct pH, since I already have these handy, if it's safe to use for aquarium life one would assume it should be safe for the leather.

[Roger Koh]

>>> my other thought was to utilise the pH down product from my old aquarium and the tester strips with distilled water to make a solution that meets the correct pH, since I already have these handy, if it's safe to use for aquarium life one would assume it should be safe for the leather.

Yes, pure pH without any acidic characteristic, also use distilled water (empty water H20). All other water is merely a solution of dissolved solids.

[petehatz]

>>> my other thought was to utilise the pH down product from my old aquarium and the tester strips with distilled water to make a solution that meets the correct pH, since I already have these handy, if it's safe to use for aquarium life one would assume it should be safe for the leather.

Yes, pure pH without any acidic characteristic, also use distilled water (empty water H20). All other water is merely a solution of dissolved solids.

Hi Roger, I sprayed the seats with the solution yesterday, and wiped them down using a microfiber towel. Today, I noticed they seem a little dry, but I guess this might be normal since using the slightly more acidic solution of pH 3.0. Now should I apply my leather conditioning to restore the fats?

Many thanks
Pete

[Roger Koh]

>>> Now should I apply my leather conditioning to restore the fats?

There are two types of leather conditioner, one is structural, and the other is surface.

Restoring the fat will require a structural condition, either a stuffing oil or the original fatliquor, used in the tannery.

If you are enjoying the surface feel of leather, such as a non-stick buttery feel, then Protector-B will do the job.

Let me know what you need.

[Roger Koh]

Is this a product description that you want?

Leather Doctor Fatliquor-5.0 is an emulsion of fat and oil conditioner used to bond with leather fibers for suppleness.
Fatliquor-5.0 penetrates the leather to prevent dry rot, restore tear strength and softness, as the leather ages, or revitalize leather from stiffness damages.
This universal Fatliquor-5.0 is recommended for all leather types, including nubuck, suede, hair-on-hide, and woolskin.

People Also Ask:

What is Fatliquor?
Leather Doctor Fatliquor-5.0 conditioner is a micro-emulsion of fat, oil, and water for rejuvenating all leather, and suede types to impart their original suppleness, from dry rot and stiffness.

How Fatliquoring Works?
Fatliquoring typically works in conjunction with a preconditioner like Hydrator-3.3 to relax and open up the fibrous leather structure.

Why Fatliquoring Works?
The fat plumps the leather with fullness from easily collapsing into creases and wrinkles during stress or flex, while the oil lubricates the fibers so that they slide over one another smoothly like millions of interconnecting hinges.
Fatliquor-5.0 helps to keep leather at its optimum physical performance and prevent premature aging.
Fatliquor-5.0 softens the leather when dry with stretchability, compressibility, and flexibility while enhancing its rip tensile strength greatly.

When Fatliquoring Works?
Fatliquor-5.0 on application, the water-encased molecule breaks free when ionic attraction takes place between the fat and oil with the leather protein fiber.
The excess free water content wicks out leaving a breathing space behind for leather's natural transpiration.

Purpose of using Fatliquor?
Unlike other conditioning oil that just fills up the breathing pores, Fatliquor-5.0 carries an ionic negative (-ve) charge to hydrogen bond with the ionic positive (+ve) charge of the leather fibers thus freeing up pores for better breathability.

Purpose of Fatliquoring?
Fatliquor-5.0 conditioning is for replenishing the original fat and oil that diminishes through sun bleaching, aging, heat, and alkaline over-exposure or cleaning.

What is the original leather percentage of fatliquor contents from the tannery?
The quantities of fat-liquor (fat and oil) contents retained in the leather after a universal tannery fat-liquoring process may vary from 14% to 16% depending on the leather type and its usage.

How fatliquor content of fat and oil diminish?
This percentage drops as the fat and oil content diminish or leaches through aging, water, heat, or chemical overexposure.

How to determine the percentage of fatliquor retained in the leather?
Leather rejuvenating or fat-liquor replenishing is based on the weight of the leather in relation to the percentage of remaining fat-liquor.

How to calculate the percentage of required fatliquor?
A simple calculation of the percentage of fat-liquor topping-up requirement would be as follows:
If the weight of the leather in question is 100gm and fat-liquor (fat and oil) content meter reading is less than 1%.
By applying 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to it will deliver an end result incremental of 13.3% fat-liquor when dry as the 66.6% water contents evaporate.

Why is Hydrator-3.3 used as a preconditioner?
In the leather rejuvenating system Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3.
Hydrator-3.3 plays an important role by relaxing, opening up the inter-fibrillary spaces, and facilitating and redistributing colloidal water movement.
Protonating and doing all the pre-conditioning work prior to fat-liquoring including post-cleaning up any excess surface remnants to have a sticky-free surface.

What is the ratio of usage between Hydrator-3.3 and Fatliquor-5.0?
In practice, with severe dryness, the ratio for Hydrator-3.3 is 2 to 1 of Fatliquor-5.0.
It works out to be approximately 160gm of LeatherHydrator-3.3 plus 80gm of LeatherFatliquor-5.0 to replenish 100gm dry leather from less than 1% back to the original tannery up from 14% to 16% fat-liquor content.
Every bottle of Fatliquor-5.0 by weight content is comprised of 16.66% ionic negative (-ve) charged fat and oil, and 83.33% of water.
The water content that encased the fat and oil molecule in an emulsion suspension when hydrogen bonds with the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber will break free and discharge clear from the leather structure to the surface.

[Roger Koh]

Or is this Protector-B that you want?

Leather Doctor Protector-B+
Protector-B+ is formulated to surface condition all smooth leathers.
This buttery-feel protector is a non-film-forming, non-stick, rub-resistant surface leather conditioner.
This smooth buttery-feel conditioner help stops the squeaking noises when leather comes into contact with leather, especially with leather motion furniture.
This protector imparts a non-stick, breathable barrier essential to shield the detrimental effects of sticky soiling.
This non-stick protection also prevents ballpoint from dispersing its nasty ink when comes into contact.
This non-stick barrier helps release those tenacious dye-transfer stains, especially on light-colored leathers much more easily.
This natural buttery-feel protection increases the leather's resistance to wet and dry rubs, thus reducing stretch, scuff, and abrasion too.

[petehatz]

Dear Roger, thank you for helping me save my leather. After your advice and wisdom, I applied your information to practice and the results have been great. I did however, replace the leather on the front seat bases as the foam needed replacing and they were the most worn/affected areas. The rest of the front seats + rear seats were all saved and rejuvenated and look and feel great again. I would not have been able to do this, without your guidance and wisdom and for that I am extremely grateful. For anyone else reading this, Roger is by far a wizard with leather and it's chemistry, do not hesitate to follow his advice and his leather product system if you are looking to rescue OR preserve your current leather. It amazes me the lack of knowledge that exists around this topic, including by professional detailers and automotive detailing supply stores. Who would have known leather was so complex? Thanks again!