Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Has Meguiars APC ruined my leather?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    11

    Default Has Meguiars APC ruined my leather?

    Hi all,

    Unfortunately, I cleaned my vehicle's interior with Meguiars All Purpose Cleaner D101. The product says it is safe to use on all surfaces including leather. I diluted it to around 10:1 or 8:1, then used some mechanical scrubbing to clean the leather, and followed up with Duragloss Leather Conditioner. I now understand that almost all modern leather in automotive applications is coated and that the leather conditioner with mink oils etc are pointless.

    Meguiars product claims:
    "Ideal for reconditioning all interior surfaces. The superior foaming action gently lifts the dirt away while its unique blend of fabric softeners and optical brighteners enhance the look and feel of carpet, upholstery and even leather." and "Meguiar's® D101 Detailer All Purpose Cleaner is a versatile cleaner for both exterior and interior surfaces. Its superior foaming action gently lifts the dirt away from carpet, upholstery, vinyl and even leather. Ideal for reconditioning most interior surfaces Active foaming action lifts dirt Fabric softeners enhance luxurious results."

    My leather has "brightened", faded and looks terrible since using the Meguiars APC. I also did a dye transfer test this morning using some liquid and a yellow microfibre cloth and have dye transfer onto the cloth and my hand (see pictures attached). I'm unsure whether there is any way to restore these, short of having them recoloured and coated or just getting them retrimmed in aftermarket leather and starting over.

    I've read some of Roger's information and have been in touch with him and I understand the use of a pH 2.0 acidifier may stop the bleeding, but even still, I don't know that the depth of colour or lustre could ever be restored to my seats :-(

    I also live in Australia and so getting a hold of these products is both difficult and expensive. I'm wondering whether you might have any suggestions or advice?

    here is the SDS for Meguiars APC D101 (pH of 13 :-|):

    https://www.meguiars.com/sites/defau...D101%20SDS.pdf

    I also contacted Meguiars about the fact they recommend this cleaner to be safe on leather and although I questioned that due to my experience and the pH level of the product, this was their response:

    We have now received a response from Meguiar’s Inc Senior Global Product and Training Specialist regarding your pH questions.

    "Hi Peter,

    Many thanks for your ongoing understanding regarding this matter. We have now received a response from Meguiar’s Inc Senior Global Product and Training Specialist regarding your pH questions.

    pH is the measure of hydrogen ions attached to water molecules in an aqueous solution. In short - you can only measure the pH of a water based solution. Not solvent based solutions and not solids. Hence, our solvent based products do not show a pH value on their supporting SDS documentation. And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions.

    pH alone is not a full indicator of how “dangerous” or how “powerful” any product is. The use of D101 APC on a variety of interior surfaces is very common, with only the rarest of issues, mostly from user error. We would never recommend using D108 Super Degreaser on these same interior surfaces (especially leather) even though both have a pH of 13. It’s the rest of the ingredients that make these very different products. Further, G95, Hot Rims Wheel & Tire Cleaner also has a pH of 13, but is yet again a vastly different type of product, one that nobody would ever consider using on any interior surface. So in reality, pH is almost a meaningless reason to consider avoiding, or using any product."


    I have attached some images of the seats below, they have a leather conditioner applied to them which did seem to make some temporary change to the finish, but wears off quickly when sitting on them, which you can see by the difference between the passenger and drivers side (opposite to you here in Australia). P.s I did not use the Leatherique Rejuvenating product on the floor.

    I also cleaned my plastic trims and vinyl which the APC also made them dull, brighten and leave some white residue, but since this is a leather specific forum, I'll concentrate on that issue first :-)

    Many many thanks for your valuable insights and information.

    Warmest regards
    Peter

    Name:  drivers seat.jpg
Views: 1139
Size:  80.2 KBName:  passenger seat.jpg
Views: 1145
Size:  82.2 KBName:  dye transfer hand.jpg
Views: 1142
Size:  23.5 KBName:  dye transfer microfiber.jpg
Views: 1146
Size:  57.2 KBName:  20221117_161700.jpg
Views: 1069
Size:  99.1 KB[ATTACH=CONFIG]
    Last edited by petehatz; 01-09-2023 at 03:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    5,102

    Default

    >>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions.

    Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.


    >>> pH alone is not a full indicator of how “dangerous” or how “powerful” any product is.

    Do we know that leather is an amphoteric material and is pH sensitive with a pH neutral of 3 to 5?
    Do we know that leather denatures when in contact with an alkaline solution above pH 7 (even with tap water will create rings on unprotected leathers when protection developed micro crazing or seep into stitching seams? The breaking of hydrogen bonds takes place, and the dyestuff in this case leached out. Why? Because the alkaline solution charges the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber ionic negative (-ve). Almost all leather constituents are ionic negative (-ve), behaving like a magnet ‘like poles repels’. The leather denatures, even to the extent that deteriorated the leather finishes turning tacky with a wet test of our fingertips. When frequent use any alkaline solution you will see the needle holes will develop splits, and the leather stiff out, the fatliquor has broken hydrogen bonds with the leather protein fiber and the leather revert back to rawhide. These are a few of my observations.


    >>> So in reality, pH is almost a meaningless reason to consider avoiding, or using any product."

    Do a test yourself just using any pH value above 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 on a variety of leather goods and see the result. On the reverse, use pH value 1.5 (CleanPro-1.5), pH value 2 (Acidifier-2.0), pH value 3 (Cleaner-3.0), pH value 3.3 (Hydrator-3.3), etc. And observed the rejuvenation of the leather or the denaturing of the leather. Google search pH Calculator to understand the pH neutrality of leather (3-5) versus the pH value of products you use, you will find it meaningful to avoid alkaline solutions above pH value 7.

    Wonder, why some leather cleaning products warn of not using on suede? You can take a look at the cross-section of your leather to see where suede begins, micro-crazing becomes suede, and needle holes are open suede.

    Simply ask if leather products can be used on suede, if the answer is no, do not use it!

    Remember, all the stitching needle holes, perforated holes, micro-crazing of protected leathers are suede, that easily stiff up and cracks with constant alkaline over exposure.



    Name:  rogerIcon.jpg
Views: 1109
Size:  4.8 KB
    Roger Koh
    Leather Care System Formulator
    Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor / Coach
    web: www.leatherdoctor.com
    forum: www.leathercleaningrestorationforum.com
    email: [email protected],
    email: [email protected]
    WhatsApp: +639467037976

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    5,102

    Default

    Here is a cut and copy info about Perforated Auto Seat . . . and the leather problem-solving matrix . . .

    Leather-perforated car seats are easily recognizable by the tiny holes placed at regular intervals, which add pattern and texture to the leather. The leather becomes breathable and sitting comfort increases as air easily flows through it. However, the cross-section of the perforated holes is raw suede. Leather-safe (pH 3 – 5) system products are specially formulated for these pH-sensitive leathers to free the perforations from clogging and cracking thus preserving their appearance, breathability, and sitting comfort. Hydrating and fatliquor (ionic negative charged fat and oil) replenishing these perforated leathers at periodic intervals ensures long-term suppleness that prevents leather stiffness, creasing, and cracking.

    Name:  Screen Shot 2023-01-10 at 11.55.37 AM.jpg
Views: 1094
Size:  206.2 KB

    You can find system care kits for perforated leathers from this link . . .
    https://leatherdoctor.com/leather-pe...seat-care-kit/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh View Post
    Here is a cut and copy info about Perforated Auto Seat . . . and the leather problem-solving matrix . . .

    Leather-perforated car seats are easily recognizable by the tiny holes placed at regular intervals, which add pattern and texture to the leather. The leather becomes breathable and sitting comfort increases as air easily flows through it. However, the cross-section of the perforated holes is raw suede. Leather-safe (pH 3 – 5) system products are specially formulated for these pH-sensitive leathers to free the perforations from clogging and cracking thus preserving their appearance, breathability, and sitting comfort. Hydrating and fatliquor (ionic negative charged fat and oil) replenishing these perforated leathers at periodic intervals ensures long-term suppleness that prevents leather stiffness, creasing, and cracking.

    Name:  Screen Shot 2023-01-10 at 11.55.37 AM.jpg
Views: 1094
Size:  206.2 KB

    You can find system care kits for perforated leathers from this link . . .
    https://leatherdoctor.com/leather-pe...seat-care-kit/
    p.s my leather is non perforated.. those side pieces are only a pattern not actual holes :-)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    5,102

    Default

    >>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions

    Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.

    See this Leather pH Meter as an example that leather pH value is measurable . . .

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]10790
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    11

    Default

    thanks Roger! I also submitted another reply yesterday but doesnt look like it's been posted. Not sure what's happened there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh View Post
    >>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions

    Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.

    See this Leather pH Meter as an example that leather pH value is measurable . . .

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]10790

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    5,102

    Default

    >>> A very informative and educational post! The issue now is, how does one decide whether a leather product is too far gone to be saved? Once the colour looks like it's been bleached, can the dark finish and lustre return with returned neutrality of the leather and consequent rejuvenation? OR is it simply a case of preventing further denaturing and being left with what you have?

    There are two parts to the leather, 1, Struture and 2, Finishes and in this case both need to restore accordingly.
    Structure has to be pH neutralized to return the leather to it pH neutral of 3-5. Without a pH meter how do we know its pH balanced to its pH neutrality with CleanPro-1.5 and Acidifier-2.0. The wet feel of the finger tips will shift from a tacky feel to a squeaky feel. This process only is good enough by feel of hands. You could take a scrap piece of leather and do a test with your Meguiars APC and follow up with pH balancing with CleanPro-1.5 > Acidifier-2.0 to your satisfaction prior to your actual project. (note the product suffix number reprersents its pH value).
    The appearance will need a color refinishing, we can further discuss the how about.

    >>> p.s my leather is non perforated.. those side pieces are only a pattern not actual holes :-)

    Alright, the stitching holes are considered perforated to a degree, unless your seats has no seams or needle holes in a general sense. An example of a protected or coated leather is no more so when micro-crazing develops, and has to be treated as perforated leathers or unfinished leathers too.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    11

    Default

    here is a video I just made of a wet finger test to the worst affected seat using distilled water: https://youtu.be/1ZPPnu4ApYk


    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh View Post
    >>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions

    Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.

    See this Leather pH Meter as an example that leather pH value is measurable . . .

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]10790

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    5,102

    Default

    >>> here is a video I just made of a wet finger test to the worst affected seat using distilled water: https://youtu.be/1ZPPnu4ApYk

    What are the findings, you wish to share . . . ?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    11

    Default too far gone?

    Dear Roger,

    A very informative and educational post! The issue now is, how does one decide whether a leather product is too far gone to be saved? Once the colour looks like it's been bleached, can the dark finish and lustre return with returned neutrality of the leather and consequent rejuvenation? OR is it simply a case of preventing further denaturing and being left with what you have?

    Many thanks
    Peter


    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh View Post
    >>> And so leather and vinyl do not have a measurable pH as they are obviously not pH solutions.

    Do we know why there are specific pH meters used to measure the pH value of leather? - Just google it and you will easily find them specifically use for leather analysis.


    >>> pH alone is not a full indicator of how “dangerous” or how “powerful” any product is.

    Do we know that leather is an amphoteric material and is pH sensitive with a pH neutral of 3 to 5?
    Do we know that leather denatures when in contact with an alkaline solution above pH 7 (even with tap water will create rings on unprotected leathers when protection developed micro crazing or seep into stitching seams? The breaking of hydrogen bonds takes place, and the dyestuff in this case leached out. Why? Because the alkaline solution charges the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber ionic negative (-ve). Almost all leather constituents are ionic negative (-ve), behaving like a magnet ‘like poles repels’. The leather denatures, even to the extent that deteriorated the leather finishes turning tacky with a wet test of our fingertips. When frequent use any alkaline solution you will see the needle holes will develop splits, and the leather stiff out, the fatliquor has broken hydrogen bonds with the leather protein fiber and the leather revert back to rawhide. These are a few of my observations.


    >>> So in reality, pH is almost a meaningless reason to consider avoiding, or using any product."

    Do a test yourself just using any pH value above 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 on a variety of leather goods and see the result. On the reverse, use pH value 1.5 (CleanPro-1.5), pH value 2 (Acidifier-2.0), pH value 3 (Cleaner-3.0), pH value 3.3 (Hydrator-3.3), etc. And observed the rejuvenation of the leather or the denaturing of the leather. Google search pH Calculator to understand the pH neutrality of leather (3-5) versus the pH value of products you use, you will find it meaningful to avoid alkaline solutions above pH value 7.

    Wonder, why some leather cleaning products warn of not using on suede? You can take a look at the cross-section of your leather to see where suede begins, micro-crazing becomes suede, and needle holes are open suede.

    Simply ask if leather products can be used on suede, if the answer is no, do not use it!

    Remember, all the stitching needle holes, perforated holes, micro-crazing of protected leathers are suede, that easily stiff up and cracks with constant alkaline over exposure.



    Name:  rogerIcon.jpg
Views: 1109
Size:  4.8 KB
    Roger Koh
    Leather Care System Formulator
    Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor / Coach
    web: www.leatherdoctor.com
    forum: www.leathercleaningrestorationforum.com
    email: [email protected],
    email: [email protected]
    WhatsApp: +639467037976

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •