Results 1 to 61 of 61

Thread: Vegetable-Tanned (Naked Unfinished) - Fredericia Model 2213 - Sofa 3-seater designed by Børge Mogensen - Does this leather have life left in it?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default Vegetable-Tanned (Naked Unfinished) - Fredericia Model 2213 - Sofa 3-seater designed by Børge Mogensen - Does this leather have life left in it?

    Hi All,

    I'm new here and wondering if this leather is worth saving or not. I've included some photos. I believe that it's semi-aniline though I'm not 100% sure since it's quite old.

    Kind regards.

    Name:  erez-1.jpg
Views: 771
Size:  40.7 KBName:  erez-2.jpg
Views: 717
Size:  65.3 KBName:  erez-3.jpg
Views: 870
Size:  69.2 KBName:  erez-4.jpg
Views: 582
Size:  84.5 KBName:  erez-5.jpg
Views: 694
Size:  45.5 KBName:  erez.jpg
Views: 1151
Size:  44.2 KB

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default Clarification...

    I wanted to amend my previous post to explain a bit more. My biggest concern is dryness. I don't so much mind the stains and wear that comes with age and patina, I do worry though that the leather may or may not be worth restoring if it's too dry. It's hard to do this all by email but the seller assures me that the leather has many years of life left with proper conditioning. Perhaps it's simply too much work?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> I believe that it's semi-aniline though I'm not 100% sure since it's quite old.

    This is naked unfinished vegetable-tanned leather.


    >>> Does this leather have life left in it?

    The lifeblood of leather is measurable by the percentage of fatliquor in it, mainly the fat that plumps the leather inter-fibrillary spaces with fullness and the oil that lubricates the individual fibrils that they slide over one another smoothly without breaking or cracking collectively. 1% or under will be the extreme dryness and 14% will be the optimum level of Fatliquor finished from a typical tannery. Commonly many leather pieces has stayed on the shelf for too long before making into furniture and often reads half of its fatliquor contents, such as 6 to 7% is already half dry.


    >>> My biggest concern is dryness. I do worry though that the leather may or may not be worth restoring if it's too dry.

    Assuming fatliquor contents reads below 1% and surely it is too dry. To bring it back to original tannery highest standard would require a top-up of 13% Fatliquor-5.0. Prior to fatliquor replenishing, the leather fiber need to be hydrated or plumps up to separate the stick together leather fibrils or opening up the inter-fibrillary spaces. This hydrating stage with Hydrator-3.3 plumps the leather of its creases and wrinkles preconditioning it for fatliquor replenishing. As the water content of the fatliquor evaporates more is applied until the desire softness is reached or reads up to 14% of fatliquor contents when dry.


    >>> I don't so much mind the stains and wear that comes with age and patina.

    Unfinished vegetable-tanned leathers behaves just like our skin, it tans when exposed to UV light. Lightening of the tanning or patina effect is performed by applying Vachetta-2.8. With its redox chemical reaction it lightens the leather appearance. Oil and grease stains take on a darkening effect and is degreased by Degreaser-2.2 > Acidifier-2.0 system.


    >>> Perhaps it's simply too much work?

    Send it to me to work it out for you, if you wish.


    Use this Vegetable-Tanned (V) Leather Problem Solving Guide as reference.
    Name:  Vegetable-Tanned (V).jpg
Views: 629
Size:  351.2 KB



    Solution to the problem is found in this Kit V6

    Name:  a20791f145c3f58b3eb7b2_m.jpg
Views: 592
Size:  49.6 KB

    Leather Doctor® Kit V6 is a combination problem solving kit that includes products from Kit V5.dr, Kit V5.ds and Kit V3. Common stains encounter in the course of vachetta leathers lifetime includes the darkening effect from neglected body oil, grease and sweat contact, the occasion ink and dye transfer, and the browning from liquid and sun tanning seasoning effect just like our skin. The protein leather fiber is an ionic positive (+ve) “amphoteric” material thus pH sensitive to influence by alkaline solution shifting ionic negative (-ve), even water with a pH of 7 often discolors or browns it. Its other non-amphoteric leather constituents like the tanning agent and the fatliquor remains ionic negative (-ve), hence just like a magnet – “like poles repel”, breaking of the hydrogen bond between them, the leather denatures and in extreme cases revert to rawhide. This adverse contamination is rectify by Degreaser-2.2 > Acidifier-2.0 system, both to simultaneously degrease and protonate the protein fiber ionic positive (+ve) to its pH chemistry integrity. Ballpoint, printing ink, dye transfer, gum, sticky substance and accumulated soiling will require the penetrating, lubricating and suspending power of Prep-4.4 follows with Clean-3.8 to remove the sticky residue and Rinse-3.0 to a healthy squeaky feel. Browning from liquid stain or sun tanning is eliminated or reduced by chemical reaction from Vachetta-2.8 when dry. The above describe the three common class of stain removal. Leather rejuvenating mandatory sequence follows to soften and strength the leather from stiffness that may leads to cracking when flexed. Among leather finishes type, vachetta leathers is the most fatliquor (fat, oil and water) thirsty and will require more fatliquor to soften it then chrome-tanned leathers. In order to lubricate each fibril within the leather structure behaving like millions of interconnecting hinges the fat and oil has to be hydrogen bonded to the fibrils. This is accomplished by preconditioning the leather structure with Hydrator-3.3 effectively prior to faliquor replenishing it with Fatliquor-5.0 in between drying cycle until fully saturated. Natural slow drying in between application produces softer leather. Protecting the leather with Protector-D reduces wear to the grain of the leather, conceal scuff with its healing properties that also allows transpiration to take place or breaths naturally. Note that the mentioned products suffix numbers denotes its pH value in this holistic approach to removing the common problems associated with vachetta, saddlery and veg-tan leathers.

    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    [email protected]
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 09-03-2014 at 12:04 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    Thank you kindly for the thoughtful reply. Is this restoration something I can do in my home or is it something in which a workspace is needed? I'm unfamiliar with the VOCs of these products. I consider myself a DIYer and I'm happy and excited to take on the project. I just wasn't sure if the sofa was worth buying if perhaps the leather was beyond repair. However if you believe that it can be brought back to life then I am happy to take on the challenge.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Is this restoration something I can do in my home or is it something in which a workspace is needed?

    Leather rejuvenating is a yearly periodic maintenance care and it is done where the furniture is.


    >>> I'm unfamiliar with the VOCs of these products.

    These are water-based LeatherSafe products you may like to check out the MSDS from here - http://www.leathercleaningrestoratio...er-Doctor-MSDS


    >>> However if you believe that it can be brought back to life


    Bringing back to life from “may not be worth restoring if it's too dry” – “too dry” is the lost of fatliquor through evaporation, diminished or vanish through thin air. Assuming it is less than 1% of fatliquor content left, 13% is what need to be replenished.


    A calculation of Percentage of Fatliquor Requirement:

    If the weight of the “too-dry leather” in question is 100gm and fatliquor (fat and oil) content reading is less than 1%. By applying 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to it will deliver a 13.3% of fatliquor (fat and oil) content while the 66.6% of water contents evaporates and leaves the inter-fibrillary spaces free for natural leather transpiration that makes leather comfortable to sit on. So every 100gm of dried leather will need 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to accomplish your mission and Hydrator-3.3 as a pre-conditioner plays an important role prior to Fatliquor-5.0 and after cleaning up as well. In dry leather rejuvenation or leather suppleness restoration it is normal to have 2 times the amount of Hydrator-3.3 to one time that of the Fatliquor-5.0 as the ratio system.


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    [email protected]
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 09-04-2014 at 11:06 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Thanks for the reply Roger. I'll post a two part reply.

    Part 1 (regarding sofa in question):

    From what I gather (some of this is over my head at the moment) I need to start the process with Hydrator-3.3 (I assume directions are on the bottle) and then follow up with as many coats of Fatliquor-5.0 as needed until suppleness has returned (around the 14% mark). I assume I would apply multiple thin coats. Do I apply this to the exterior of the leather only? Obviously I can only apply to the exterior on the sofa frame however the cushions can be removed. Do I work the inside too?

    After the Hydrator and Fatliquor, what comes next? Also, should I clean before or after the start of the above process? Fredericia warns on their website to never use anything on the leather other than water and soap flakes. I realize that is in reference to newer sofas however I was wondering if I should still follow manufacturer's instruction to lean with water and soap flakes (which I have from a home store in Sweden for my other woods).

    I'm just trying to understand the process from start to finish best that I can so I may order the products now that way, by the time the sofa arrives, I can begin work immediately on it.

    Also, if I wanted to pursue fixing the part on the arm cushion that has already broken down, what would I use for this?

    Thank you in advanced. I'm excited to use your products.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Part 2 (hijacking my own thread):

    Since I have you here, I might as well hijack my own thread and ask separately about removing the seat stain on this chair:

    Name:  3526359.jpg
Views: 662
Size:  241.9 KB

    Kind regards

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> I need to start the process with Hydrator-3.3 (I assume directions are on the bottle) and then follow up with as many coats of Fatliquor-5.0 as needed until suppleness has returned (around the 14% mark).

    The 1st step hydrating process will take on double the amount that of the fatliquor (example 100gm of leather by weight will need 160gm of Hydrator-3.3 and 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to return a 13.3% fat and oil content assuming the leather is less than 1% of fat and oil left) and may take up to 72hrs of dwelling time, opening up the crushed, shrunk and stick-together inter-fibrillary spaces especially for the purpose of softening up the leather structure.
    It is only when the free flow of water movement within the leather structure is achieved that allows efficient distribution of the Fatliquor-5.0. The dwelling that swells and plumps the fiber with moisture oozing out when press between fingers and thumb will be a good sign of hydrating. When hydrating has reach its optimum level, creases and wrinkles will be easily stretch back to shape and dimension. Looking smart, fatliquor replenishing begins and as the water contents evaporates the fat and oil hydrogen bond with the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber. The water content will be ultimately replace with fat and oil up to the desire softness or the tannery standard of up to 14% when perfectly dry.


    >>> >>> From what I gather (some of this is over my head at the moment) I assume I would apply multiple thin coats.

    The principle of fatliquoring is to reach the entire cross section of the leather. In order to do that is a continuous application of fatliquor at surface drying intervals. By apply multiple thin layers when the leather becomes too dry may not reach the depth of the leather thickness.


    >>> Do I apply this to the exterior of the leather only? Obviously I can only apply to the exterior on the sofa frame however the cushions can be removed. Do I work the inside too?

    The reverse suede side of the leather fiber is looser and makes it easier for application process. But for appearance sake it is uniformly applied at a chosen surface, and in this case it is better from the front. Even application throughout also ensure even appearance.

    Tips:
    Wrapped up the inside cushion with plastic before the leather rejuvenating process – keeps it dry, make sense?


    >>> After the Hydrator and Fatliquor, what comes next?

    According to the guide, step 3 is Protector-D.


    >>> Also, should I clean before or after the start of the above process?

    According to the guide all “Soiling”, “Stain” and “Odor” types come before the leather rejuvenating process. Fatliquor-5.0 is the end of the wet process.


    >>> Fredericia warns on their website to never use anything on the leather other than water and soap flakes. I realize that is in reference to newer sofas however I was wondering if I should still follow manufacturer's instruction to lean with water and soap flakes (which I have from a home store in Sweden for my other woods).

    Water:
    Water is bad for leather; you can see plenty of water damages including the auto forum. There are also other furniture labels that say never use water on leather and they can prove it. Drip some “water” onto a new piece of leather sample and most cases you see rings. Water is on leather is misunderstood! We need to know the purity of water; especially tap water if it comes through some rust you will have brown marks as an example. How about rain water, we need to know if purity and pH value as well. In general water collectively has an average pH value of 7. Leather especially vegetable-tanned leather has a lower pH value than chrome leather around pH 3. pH 3 is the pH neutral of most vegetable-tanned leathers, which is also refers to as its iso-electric point of in short pI. pH value is measured in log, that is the power of 10. Between pH 3 and pH7 is 10,000 times in ionic differences. That is the cause of the problem – rings forms as the leather constituents moves away from the center of ionic overexposure – discoloration with most stiffness in most cases.

    The warning should be worded as “only use cleaning products that has a pH value of between 3 and 5”.

    Soap Flakes:
    Most soap even the best face soap will leave scum on our basin and bathtubs and attracting soiling like magnets.
    Besides what is the pH value as mentioned above?

    Try cleaning your computer screen with soap flakes and compare half of the screen using Clean-3.8. has a pH value of 3.8 and is free of residue keeps the leather surface stays clean longer. We go further one step to rinse off with Rinse-3.0 as a holistic system with no side effects to the leather perfectly.

    The warning should be worded as “only use residue-free leather cleaner with matches the pH value of this leather” from side effects.


    >>> I'm just trying to understand the process from start to finish best that I can so I may order the products now that way, by the time the sofa arrives, I can begin work immediately on it.

    Use the guide as reference!


    >>> Also, if I wanted to pursue fixing the part on the arm cushion that has already broken down, what would I use for this?


    This is unfinished naked leather; any repairs will be as obvious as healing scars and deviate from the originality.
    Check out for Bond-3D > Bond-7A with Donor Fiber required for missing fibers areas.


    Hydrator-3.3 is the pre-conditioner for Fatliquor-5.0 and here are some of its general descriptions and functions:

    Name:  a207916145391c8dbd408b_m.jpg
Views: 544
Size:  25.2 KB
    Leather Doctor® Hydrator-3.3 is a waterbased pH 3.3 leather-safe hydrator that relaxes the leather structure and acts as a fatliquor preconditioner with multi functional abilities. If leather structure can by hydrated, plumped and relaxed, it can be fatliquored as soft as you wish! Surface application is primary to check for even surface tension free of blotchiness prior to fatliquor replenishing. Structural or below surface application will require saturating to an optimum level with moisture oozing out when gently pressed between thumb and fingers. This universal Hydrator-3.3 is for all leather types including pigmented, aniline, vachetta, nubuck, suede, hair-on-hide and woolskin.

    The multi functional abilities include:

    A) Dent Repair:
    Application from the reverse suede side is recommended for non-absorbent leathers to relax dents. When dry thereafter heat treatment rectifies overstretching problems.

    B) Structural (below surface) Stain Removal:
    B1). Acts to facilitates colloidal water movement within the inter-fibrillary spaces for wicking foreign soiling particulates to resurface.
    B2). Acts to rectify alkaline overexposure areas by facilitating colloidal water movement to redistribute the leather constituents from surrounding areas. Advance technique utilizes stretchable paper towel for “reverse transferring” the soiling particulates instead of remaining on the leather surface.

    C) Activate Dormant Dyestuff:
    C1). Acts to activate dormant or excess dyestuff within the leather structure to resurface.

    D) Working out Creases and Wrinkles:
    D1). Acts to plumps relaxes and separates crushed, shrunk and stick together fibrils for manipulating-away unwanted creases and wrinkles.

    E) Acts as preconditioner prior to fatliquor replenishing process:
    E1). Acts to check for surface tension for an even appearance free from blotchiness, prior to fatliquor replenishing.
    E2). Acts to stabilize, pH balance and charge the protein fiber below its iso-electric point (pI) ionic positive to hydrogen bond with the ionic negative fatliquor more effectively.

    Name:  a207916145391c6f8e34f4_m.jpg
Views: 587
Size:  24.7 KB
    Leather Doctor® Fatliquor-5.0, a micro emulsion of fat, oil and water is an anionic charged pH 5.0 fatliquor for rejuvenating all leather types. It relaxes coarse breaks, creases and wrinkles enhance suppleness and prevent cracking. It softens the leather with stretchability, compressibility and flexibility, while enhancing its rip tensile strength greatly. It is for replenishing the original fat and oil that diminishes thru sun-bleaching, ageing, heat and alkaline overexposure or cleaning. On application, the water-encased molecule breaks free when hydrogen bond attraction takes place between the fat and oil with the protein fiber. The excess free water content wicks out leaving a breathing space behind for leather natural transpiration. The fat plumps the leather with fullness from easily collapsing into creases and wrinkles during stress or flex, while the oil lubricates the fibers so that they slide over one another smoothly like millions of inter-connecting hinges. Thus helps to keep leather at its optimum physical performance and prevent premature ageing. This universal Fatliquor-5.0 is for all leather types including pigmented, aniline, vachetta, nubuck, suede, hair-on-hide and woolskin.
    Instruction:
    1 Apply Fatliquor-5.0 and redistribute with foam brush until saturation.
    2 Repeat application each time water contents evaporate until fully saturated.
    3 Drive remaining surface remnants free of milky fat and oil until it turns clear with Hydrator-3.3.
    4 Allow natural drying for extra softness.
    Tips:
    1 When crispy dry, prior surface contaminations/damages may darkens as soiling particulates resurface.
    2 Removes soiling particulates with Eraser-4 for all leathers including nubuck and Eraser-5 for suede.
    3 Stretching the darken areas lightly will also lightens the appearance.
    Leather Approximate Quantity or Percentage of Fatliquor:
    The quantities of fatliquor (fat and oil) contents retained in the leather after an universal tannery fatliquoring process may varies up to 14% depending on the leather types and it usage. This percentage drops as the fat and oil content diminishes or leaches through ageing, water, heat or chemical overexposure.
    Leather rejuvenating or fatliquor replenishing is base on weight of the leather in relation to the percentage of remaining fatliquor. A simple calculation of percentage of fatliquor topping up requirement would be as follows:
    If the weight of the leather in question is 100gm and fatliquor (fat and oil) content meter reading is less than 1%.
    By applying 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to it will deliver an end result incremental of 13.3% fatliquor when dry as the 66.6% water contents evaporates.
    In the leather rejuvenating Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system, Hydrator-3.3 plays an important role by relaxing, opening up the inter-fibrillary spaces, facilitating and redistributing colloidal water movement, protonating and doing all the pre-conditioning work prior to fatliquoring including cleaning up any excess surface remnants to have a sticky-free surface. In practice the ratio for Hydrator-3.3 is 2 to 1 of Fatliquor-5.0.
    It works out to be approximately 160gm of Hydrator-3.3 plus 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to replenish a 100gm dry leather from less than 1% back to the original tannery up to 14% fatliquor content.


    Name:  a207916145391d12af19a1_m.jpg
Views: 565
Size:  27.4 KB
    Leather Doctor® Leather Bond-3D is for leather structure bonding repairs, such as abrasion, cat-scratch, and filling repairs with Stucco-90, Pigment-64, Micro-54, Anline-76 and Aniline-21. This waterbased medium soft polyurethane leather bond will not lift the leather finishes unlike other dry solvent-based glue. Works in conjunction with leather Patch-4S as sub patch and suede fibers as fillers. Excess clean up when dry will require the help of Bond-7A.


    Name:  a207916145391d14fe6ba0_m.jpg
Views: 540
Size:  25.2 KB
    Leather Doctor® Leather Bond-7A is a bond smoothening aid and excess clean up after Bond-3D. This is a soft nitrocellulose lacquer emulsion bonding aid to level and remove excess Bond-3D from leather surface safely without the need for sanding.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Since I have you here, I might as well hijack my own thread and ask separately about removing the seat stain on this chair:

    If you can identify the stain type it would be a straight forward process with reference to the guide.

    Post it as a "new thread" and we can go into details (have to take into consideration of the wooden frame).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    Thank you kindly for the detailed explanation. I finally understand how to read the guides. I didn't realize the numbers were "steps". It makes full sense to me now.

    I'll post about the chair in a new discussion.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> is one bottle of the Fatliquor enough?

    What is the size you are talking about – 250ml or quart?
    The preconditioner Hydrator-3.3 is at ratio 2: 1 to Fatliquor-5.0 not to be left out.


    The leather thickness of the chair may not be the same thickness of the sofa.
    Fatliquoring is based on percentage of the weight of the leather.
    In practice, we may weight the leather without the filling and determine the weight.
    Take a measurement of the cushion and work out the total areas to be covered.
    Base on the below estimation we should be able to decide how much will be sufficient to max it out to 14% by weight when dry.

    Leather Approximate Quantity or Percentage of Fatliquor:
    The quantities of fatliquor (fat and oil) contents retained in the leather after an universal tannery fatliquoring process may varies up to 14% depending on the leather types and it usage. This percentage drops as the fat and oil content diminishes or leaches through ageing, water, heat or chemical overexposure.
    Leather rejuvenating or fatliquor replenishing is base on weight of the leather in relation to the percentage of remaining fatliquor. A simple calculation of percentage of fatliquor topping up requirement would be as follows:
    If the weight of the leather in question is 100gm and fatliquor (fat and oil) content meter reading is less than 1%.
    By applying 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to it will deliver an end result incremental of 13.3% fatliquor when dry as the 66.6% water contents evaporates.
    In the leather rejuvenating Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system, Hydrator-3.3 plays an important role by relaxing, opening up the inter-fibrillary spaces, facilitating and redistributing colloidal water movement, protonating and doing all the pre-conditioning work prior to fatliquoring including cleaning up any excess surface remnants to have a sticky-free surface. In practice the ratio for Hydrator-3.3 is 2 to 1 of Fatliquor-5.0.
    It works out to be approximately 160gm of Hydrator-3.3 plus 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to replenish a 100gm dry leather from less than 1% back to the original tannery up to 14% fatliquor content.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    I'm talking about whatever size comes in the kit V6. I am hoping only for an estimated response from you as I do not have to sofa yet and would like to place the order today so that the products arrive at the same time as the sofa. So, that being said, looking at the pictures and knowing the sofa, will the Fatliquor (and Hydrator) in Kit V6 be enough for the entire sofa at once? I don't have the ability at the moment to weigh the leather.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    My estimate is 3 quarts for the Fatliquor-5.0 then Hydrator-3.3 should be double that amount ( I always overestimate, not sure until we do it s we do not know how dry it is and the weight as well to be accurate, without weight I would try out one cushion and get the result and estimate from there how much I would need). These products are used on periodic basis during the entire lifespan of the leather and not going to be wasted if you have remainder. Refills are available as individual bottles, fill-up version saves on shipping rates.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Thank you Rogger. So, if I took the reduced shipping weight option of the 250ML at a 1:5 ration then I'll need two bottles (so 500ml concentrate) in order to complete the job, correct?

    Edit: 2 bottles @ 250ML Fatliquor and 4 bottles @ 250ML of Hydrator, yes?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    Ratio of the leather rejuvenating system is correct.

    >>> in order to complete the job.
    This is questionable, we do not know the existing fatliquor left (we do not have an oil stick just like our car engine to determine the percentage in our leather).
    Unless you have a moisture meter to take a measurement, we have to make a guessing, it could be as low as 0% certainly will never be up to 14%.
    Assume that it is half and go from there as first phase.
    Evaluate and you may go for another round when dry.
    This method will cost you more usage of Hydrator-3.3 as each time you have to saturate the leather to do so.
    With a one time complete fatliquoring you only need one time Hydrator-3.3 to set it up.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    I finally received the sofa yesterday. It definitely needs some love however it's more supple than I expected which is a good thing. One thing that concerns me is that I accidentally touched the sofa with a semi-wet hand yesterday and it pulled off some brownish coloring. I'm wondering if the previous owner or auction house used a browning agent to darken the look of the sofa at some point. It's definitely a vegetable tanned sofa though. The water mark from my hand stayed immediately.

    So, that being said, I plan to order today. I plan to get 2 bottles of Fatliquor, 4 bottles of hydrator and then how many bottles and of what should I use for a general cleaning? I'd like to order a kit. I guess the V6 kit is the best option. If I order v6, how many add-on bottles of Fatliquor and Hydrator do I need? Presumably one additional bottle of Fatliquor (plus the one with the kit) and three additional Hydrators since it comes with one as well. Is this assumption correct?

    Kind regards.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> One thing that concerns me is that I accidentally touched the sofa with a semi-wet hand yesterday and it pulled off some brownish coloring. I'm wondering if the previous owner or auction house used a browning agent to darken the look of the sofa at some point. It's definitely a vegetable tanned sofa though. The watermark from my hand stayed immediately.

    Please show some pictures, unusual for color to be lighter when touches with a semi-wet hand, it is usually the reverse, that is it browns. Let’s see if a white damp towel also pulls the color out?


    >>> So, that being said, I plan to order today. I plan to get 2 bottles of Fatliquor, 4 bottles of hydrator and then how many bottles and of what should I use for a general cleaning?

    The general cleaning will depends on what is the cause of the color loss that may be some coloring that need to removed returning the leather to its original characteristic. A testing with Prep-4.4 > Clean-3.8 > Rinse-3.0, Degreaser-2.2 > Rinse-3.0 or Acidifier-2.0 or Stripper-2.3 system will determine what need to be done. Other remaining combination stains if any will require the matching stain remover system as found in the “Use this Vegetable-Tanned (V) Leather Problem Solving Guide as reference.” All restorative cleaning and stain removal is the 1st phrase with satisfaction before continuing in the the 2nd phase of leather rejuvenating it with Hydrator-3.3 >Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system.


    >>> I'd like to order a kit. I guess the V6 kit is the best option. If I order v6, how many add-on bottles of Fatliquor and Hydrator do I need? Presumably one additional bottle of Fatliquor (plus the one with the kit) and three additional Hydrators since it comes with one as well. Is this assumption correct?

    Predetermination is a better option than assumption!
    The product system is correct, how much each product need will still depends on the severity of the problem (yet to be revealed as the stains maybe camouflage with unknown coloring that is for 1st phase, The 2nd phase will depends how dry the leather is, how thick the leather is, the weight of the leather, the existing fatliquor level and how much you intent to reach, 14%? The percentage is factual and can be determine with a meter if you like to have one to go with the order. Otherwise weight the leather before and after will give you the percentage by weight as well for one cushion and you can factor the remaining by surface areas to determine how much you will need for every square area.


    Tips:
    When leather is too dry of fat liquor (less than 3%) it is recommended that the leather be first rejuvenated (Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0) prior to restorative cleaning as the existing weak fat liquor (ionic attraction or hydrogen-bond weakening may caused the fat liquor to be removed removed during the cleaning process). And during the drying process with Van der Waal or London Forces phenomenon comes into play the leather fibrils becomes stick together, stiff up and will lightly crack when stressed or flexed. In such situation it will take a longer dwell time to separates the stick together leather fibrils with Hydrator-3.3 prior to Fatliquor-5.0 for suppling it up with softness and strength.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 10-31-2014 at 12:41 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    I've attached some pictures. The first one is the mark that my wet hand left. It is indeed darker. I meant that my hand had some brown coloring on it after. I did as you said as spot tested the back of one of the cushions. I've attached pictures of the damp spot and the paper towel with brown residue on it after a light rubbing.

    Name:  wet-hand-mark.jpg
Views: 587
Size:  83.7 KB

    Name:  spot-test1.jpg
Views: 556
Size:  152.9 KB

    Name:  spot-test2.jpg
Views: 552
Size:  66.6 KB

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    The pH chemistry integrity may not be at its original neutral or iso-electric point or pI.

    To reduce this pH imbalance will need to bring the general pH value back to about 3.

    You may need Acidifier-2.0 (pH 2.0) to perform this reverse of the pH value.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Thanks Roger. I see in the chart that Acidifier is typically step 2 depending on the situation. With which step should I start?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Also, here is my cart so far if I a understanding everything correctly:

    1x Quart RTU Hydrator-3.3
    5x Quart Fill-up Hydrator-3.3

    1x Quart RTU Fatliquor-5.0
    2x Quart Fill-up Fatliquor-5.0

    That will give me 3 quarts of Fatliquor and the 6 quarts of Hydrator. Is this correct based on what we have discussed thus far? Is there a way to only order Fill-ups and still get a spray nozzle? That would keep shipping even cheaper.

    Now I just need to understand what amount and sizes of the cleaning products. Since this is starting to get pricey, can you recommend the basic essentials for cleaning at this point? I really don't mind the discolorations and stains so much. My main focus is rehydrating the leather to prevent further damage.
    Last edited by veggitanned; 10-31-2014 at 02:31 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Thanks Roger. I see in the chart that Acidifier is typically step 2 depending on the situation. With which step should I start?

    On unfinished vegetable-tanned leathers most stain are penetrated and degreasing below surface is the most logic option to start. Degreaser-2.2 (pH 2.2) besides degreasing it also protonates the leather protein fiber to increase the ionic attraction between the amphoteric protein fibers and the non-amphoteric leather constituents like the tanning agents and the fatliquor. Step 2 in this process is accomplished with Acidifier-2.0 (pH 2.0) both for rinsing and protonating the protein fiber for stronger hydrogen bonding between the protein fiber and the leather constituents. Below surface structural colloidal water movement is accomplished with Hydrator-3.3 (pH 3.3) and dwelling up to 72hrs with evaporation control will relax the leather, moves foreign contamination to the surface and redistribute the leather constituents to even out the leather pH chemistry integrity.

    Unknown stains other than oil and grease base may remain behind and need to removes them according to their stain type – please see guide.

    Until all stains are removes to give an even appearance that the next phase of leather rejuvenating commences.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> My main focus is rehydrating the leather to prevent further damage.

    Recommend Kit-V6 in Fill-Up version and all other necessary refills in Fill-Up version as well.

    6 Quarts Hydrator-3.3 in Fill-Up version
    3 Quarts Fatliquor-5.0 in Fill-Up version

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Perfect Roger. I've changed them all to fill-up versions. What about spray nozzles or do they come with the fill-up versions?

    Also, last question remaining regarding the cleaning process. I'll go with Degreaser-2.2 and Acidifier-2.0. How much of each of these should I order?

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> I've attached some pictures. The first one is the mark that my wet hand left. It is indeed darker. I meant that my hand had some brown coloring on it after. I did as you said as spot tested the back of one of the cushions. I've attached pictures of the damp spot and the paper towel with brown residue on it after a light rubbing.


    The ionic attraction or hydrogen bonding between the protein fiber and its leather constituents at the molecular level has weakened. Protonating and rinsing with a low pH solution like Acidifier-2.0 will reduce or removes the mark. Using Vachetta-2.8 will definitely remove the mark, but may also removes the sun tanning effect lightening it up as well.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Yeah, I definitely don't want to remove the patina. I wont use the Vachetta-2.8. Just the Degreaser as step 1 and Acidifier as the rinse. Any stains left after that can simply stay, I don't mind. Step 3 for me will be Hydrator and lastly Fatliquor. Just need answers to post #24 and I can be all set to place the order. Thanks for all of your help.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    Another question here. As it turns out, the leather on the cushions is decently supple but the frame leather is extremely dry and brittle. Our cat got her claws into the leather in a few spots and since it's so dry it cracked and ripped parts. Two part question: 1. Will reconditioning with Fatliquor strengthen the leather at this stage since it's so dry? 2. What would one use to repair the punctures. I've attached pictures.

    Also, when I try to order kit V6 it's says it's temporarily unavailable. I'd like to order tomorrow at the latest. I have to sofa covered until the products arrive as I fear more damage until I heal the leather.

    Name:  rip-1.jpg
Views: 536
Size:  115.2 KB

    Name:  rip-2.jpg
Views: 588
Size:  116.4 KB

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Perfect Roger. I've changed them all to fill-up versions. What about spray nozzles or do they come with the fill-up versions?

    Spray nozzles or mini sprayers only comes with the 250ml packing both RTU and Fill-up version. Recommend that you include each of the Hydrator-3.3 and Fatliquor-5.0 in 250ml Fill-up bottles together with the Fill-up version of the refills.


    >>> Also, last question remaining regarding the cleaning process. I'll go with Degreaser-2.2 and Acidifier-2.0. How much of each of these should I order?

    Minimum ratio is 1: 2 of Acidifier-2.0 for surface rinsing.
    Below surface rinsing will require Hydrator-3.3.
    Thus above and below surface combination is Degreaser-2.2 > Acidifier-2.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system.
    Degreser-2.2 covers 1 square foot per gm/ml on smooth grain non-absorbent leather.
    Due to unfinished or naked vegetable-tanned absorbent characteristic, dryness and thickness of leather per gm/ml coverage will be drastically reduced and only can be predetermine with an actual testing on a cushion and extrapolate from there or at least we have to determine the total square areas to be covered to do an estimation.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> 1. Will reconditioning with Fatliquor strengthen the leather at this stage since it's so dry?

    The strength and suppleness of leather much depends on the percentage of fatliquor and up to 14% of modern tannery standard will keep you leather perpetually soft without cracking or easily ripped apart. Just like our car engine oil it will still require periodic top-up, as the fatliquor will continuously vanish through thin air.


    >>> 2. What would one use to repair the punctures.


    Repairs products include Bond-3D, Bond-7A, Stucco-90 and Patch-4S.
    The final result resembles the healing smooth scar of our skin and the repairs becomes stronger than surrounding areas. Such repairs is done after leather rejuvenation sequence with the Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    Thanks again for all of the fantastic information. Based on everything we have discussed, here is my final cart. Let me know if this is good and I'll process the order.

    1 250ml Fill-up Hydrator-3.3 (for spray nozzle)
    6 Quart Fill-up Hydrator-3.3

    1 250ml Fill-up Fatliquor-5.0 (for spray nozzle)
    3 Quart Fill-up Fatliquor-5.0

    1 250ml Degreaser-2.2
    1 Quart Fill-up Acidifier-2.0
    1 Horsehair leather brush

    I'll have to worry about patch repairs later as I can not afford everything all at once.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    Suggest you have a 250ml Fill-up for Acidifier-2.0 as well for spray application.

    We have just replenished the stock level for Kit-V6.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    I've added a 250ml Fill-up of Acidifier-2.0 now too. I suppose with all the above I no longer need to order kit V6 as I have everything I'll need for the moment. I'll put the payment in now.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Ok, just placed the order. I threw in some towels as well. Looking forward to getting this sofa new and alive again. I'll keep this thread update with progress.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    Just checking in with a mid-way status. I've completed the cleaning, acidifying and hydrating steps. I have the sofa completely wrapped in plastic wrap with the cushions separate to lock in moisture. I also dampened paper towels with the Hydrator before wrapping the help keep moisture in and also to absorb any bleed from color leaching. I know the ratio is 80g of Fatliquor to 100g of leather but since I have no way of weighing the leather is there a sign when enough Fatliquor has reached the leather? I'm letting the sofa dwell for 3 days so I'll begin Fatliquor work on Tuesday.

    Kind regards.

    Name:  sofa-wrapped.jpg
Views: 506
Size:  77.0 KB

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Also, one other quick question - the sofa and cushions darkened significantly. While the overall tone is more appealing since it's more even, I'm curious if everything will lighten back up a bit once it dries. It's currently much darken than I expected.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> with the cushions separate to lock in moisture.

    Do you have pictures of the cushion?
    Tips: The interior cushion may be wrapped with plastic from wetting before putting it back to be hydrated with extra obvious advantages.


    >>> I have no way of weighing the leather is there a sign when enough Fatliquor has reached the leather?

    Are the cushions without zipper?
    Just weight one and we can figure out the weight per square unit for the entire leather coverings.


    >>> I'm letting the sofa dwell for 3 days.

    You may want to check in between interval that there are sufficient moisture level in the thickness of the leather – press between thumb and finger and a little moisture should ooze out otherwise nothing moves within as redistribution and little foreign contamination have a change to wick to the surface.


    >>> I'll begin Fatliquor work on Tuesday.

    This is a connecting stage where the Hydrator-3.3 is slowly and eventually replace with Fatliquor-5.0 transitionally. While the water contents of both the Hydrator-3.3 and Fatliquor-5.0 will eventually dries up the lifeblood of leather that remains are the fat and the oil. When hydrogen bonded they last longer over a period of time and this rejuvenating when done periodically the leather will not crack or dies out of dry rot.


    >>> is there a sign when enough Fatliquor has reached the leather?

    Fatliquor is readable with a leather moisture meter or other equivalent, max out at 14%.


    >>> Our cat got her claws into the leather in a few spots and since it's so dry it cracked and ripped parts.

    It is during the hydrating process that these cracks are adjusted with perhaps a dental tool overlapping in accordingly will reduce the appearance. If you show where these damages are I may have some tips for you.

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    I've done the cushion inserts already as you have suggested. They are completed wrapped in plastic wrap and reinserted in order to give structure to the cushion while I work on it.

    Yes, the seat cushions do have a zipper. Also, they are not entirely leather as the back of the cushion is mostly canvas cotton. It would be difficult to correctly assess the weight by weighing it.

    I'll take more photos of the cat claw areas after Fatliquor and we can then assess further.

    Kind regards.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Also, one other quick question - the sofa and cushions darkened significantly. While the overall tone is more appealing since it's more even, I'm curious if everything will lighten back up a bit once it dries. It's currently much darken than I expected.

    When the water contents evaporates it will lighten up.

    But with input of fatliquor it will season up but not darken the leather.

    Any other oils will significantly darken up because stuffing oil without any ionic charges just fill up the inter-fibrillary spaces will also have an oily feel. Fatliquor-5.0 hydrogen bond with the fiber and leaving the inter-fibrillary spaces void for leather natural transpiration and any remaining residue is easily removed free with Hydrator-3.3.

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Good to know that it will lighten back up a bit. The overall tone is already much more pleasing now though as it's more uniform.

    I made quite a mess when I was spraying on the Hydrator since it needed to soak the leather. This wasn't so bad as I used a drop cloth and it's mostly water. I am concerned though about spraying on the Fatliquor as I worry, since it's a fatty substance, that it will be a very messy application with spray. Is there an alternative application method? I was thinking that it may be possible to "paint" it on with the foam brush. I do want to do it the best way possible though so if you think it's best via spray application then I'll do so. Just trying to prevent the Fatliquor from getting everywhere.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    I think I did include you a foam brush - just paint it!

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Hi Roger,

    You did include a brush. I will paint it on to keep from making a mess. Thank you.

    I completed the cushions a day sooner than the frame and have unwrapped them for preparation of Fatliquor tomorrow. I realized this may have been wrong. When I read the instructions for Hydrator on your website sometimes it says let Hydrator natural dry prior to Fatliquor and other times it does not say. I've started drying the cushions today by opening them from the plastic wrap. They are about 60% dry and should be dry fully by morning. Did I do this incorrectly? Should they be moist with Hydrator directly prior to Fatliquor or is dry fine? If I did this wrong, can I simply apply more Hydrator and then Fatliquor or should I just proceed with Fatliquor?

    Kind regards.

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    You should apply immediately and NOT until fully dry.

    (The wetter the softer as the Fatliquor-5.0 is able to penetrate the entire thickness of the leather easier).

    And let the water content of both the Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 evaporate naturally.

    As they evaporates more Fatliquor-5.5 is applied to saturate the leather to satisfaction.

    Please show some pictures.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 11-17-2014 at 09:48 AM.

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Thanks Roger,

    Unfortunately the cushions were pretty dry this morning. I went ahead with Fatliquor anyhow. It took all day but I just wrapped up the Fatliquor process and will let it dry overnight. For the final step, when it says "drive-in" Fatliquor when dry and check with Hydrator, am I to massage in the residue with a cloth and then Hydrator to clean or am I spraying Hydrator directly on in the morning?

    I'll post pictures tomorrow. Too tired at the moment. I ended up using all of the Fatliquor and, to be honest, could probably use some more although it's hard to tell right now. Things are looking pretty good though. I'll post the chair in a separate thread but it came out very nice.

    I ended up doing three rounds of Fatliquor, painting it on. This sofa was very, very dry. All I can do is hope for the best. Part are beyond saving unfortunately (like near the ripped arm cushion) but overall I think it will last for quite some time as is.

    Should I stretch the cushions tomorrow as well to help soften them or only do that after completely dry?

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Well, after letting dry overnight I am shocked with the results. The sofa is in far worse condition than when I started. Deep black spots around areas damaged by the cat, horrible tone throughout, leather actually feels much stiffer than before I started, more cracks and damages... Can you please advise on what went so wrong? I'm very frustrated at the moment.

    Name:  1.jpg
Views: 562
Size:  80.7 KB

    Name:  2.jpg
Views: 554
Size:  66.1 KB

    Name:  3.jpg
Views: 524
Size:  67.6 KB

    Name:  4.jpg
Views: 494
Size:  54.9 KB

    Name:  5.jpg
Views: 535
Size:  61.7 KB

    Name:  6.jpg
Views: 542
Size:  70.5 KB

    Name:  7.jpg
Views: 543
Size:  85.2 KB

    Name:  8.jpg
Views: 524
Size:  65.8 KB

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> For the final step, when it says "drive-in" Fatliquor when dry and check with Hydrator, am I to massage in the residue with a cloth and then Hydrator to clean or am I spraying Hydrator directly on in the morning?

    Simply clean up any residue of Fatliquor-5.0 that may remain on the surface with Hydrator-3.3. You may use the horsehair Brush-1 to brush along tight corner or welting. On a flat smooth surface you may spray and used the foam brush or stain areas to used any cotton terry towel to wipe off wick-up residue as well. The entire surface should be check for color bleeding with a wet out terry towel. Color bleeding and tackiness is then rectified with Acidifier-2.0 if any.


    >>> Should I stretch the cushions tomorrow as well to help soften them or only do that after completely dry?

    Stretch when hydrated to restore dimension and removing of unwanted creases and wrinkles.
    A very slow drying process produces softer leather.
    Stretching, staking, massaging or manipulating with flexes when dry even out the structure tension and will produce “fine breaks” when flexes or stressed. It also ncreases suppleness and reduces coarse creases and wrinkles.

    Please show if you have some pictures of your processes.


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    [email protected]

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Deep black spots around areas damaged by the cat,

    Are these spots still drying?
    Pick an isolated spot and use a hair dryer if the spot lightens in appearance?
    Use a smooth tip of a teaspoon and stretch if it lightens up?


    >>> horrible tone throughout,

    Work with Eraser-4 to remove wick-up soiling residue. Correction is further work out with Hydrator-3.3 and or with Fatliquor-5.0. This horrible tone could have reveal during the cleaning process. It also takes time for any soiling to resurface which is a good sign, the residue needs to be removed from the surface due to poor preparatory cleaning prior to leather rejuvenating it.


    >>> I've completed the cleaning, acidifying and hydrating steps.

    Explain what was used to clean it.
    Do you have before pictures?


    >>> leather actually feels much stiffer than before I started,

    In both traditional native and modern tannery making worldwide the softening of the leather is either by physical manipulating or by machine stacking after fatliquoring drying process.


    >>> more cracks and damages...

    Insufficient fatliquoring will produce cracks when dry on weaker areas or micro crazing magnified.
    Re-work with Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 using cotton padding and cling wrapper to rreduce appearance.

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Cleaning was done with provided Degreaser and Acidifier. Before pictures are on this thread already. I'm out of Fatliquor and I can't imagine spending more money at this point. I bought over $500 of products at the recommended ratios and amounts and followed all instructions. I could have simply bought $80 worth Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvenator and had satisfactory results as I have with other leather products.

    At this point, I need to know the best action to take without purchasing more products. I have a quart and a half of Hydrator left and some Acidifier. I plan to go around now with the Hydrator cleaning the sofa's top layer. I have a lot of color coming off on the terry cloth. Hopefully doing the Hydrator with terry/foam brush will at least save it a bit.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    If the leather is dry - USE the Eraser-4 to remove and lighten up appearance is the first move.

    Stretching any dark and dried spots will also lighten them up.

    Please show with pictures - the before and after to be specific.

    Please number your pictures for reference.

    Those whitish spots on the cushion may be easily removed with Eraser-4.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 11-18-2014 at 11:48 AM.

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    If dried dark spots does not response with Eraser-4 or stretching, test out with 2000grit fine sanding.

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    As I was removing the cushion insert (gently) from the arm cushion, the leather ripped a gigantic tear 5 inches long. This was after smothering the cushion is oozing Hydrator, and multiple layers of Fatliquor. How can this be? I'm very disappointed. These products have dried out the leather so badly I can not even remove the down inserts. The left arm cushions is simply falling apart.

  51. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> leather actually feels much stiffer than before I started,

    In both traditional native and modern tannery making worldwide the softening of the leather is either by physical manipulating or by machine stacking after fatliquoring drying process.


    >>> How can this be?

    Did you soften up the leather physically prior to stressing it?

  52. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> These products have dried out the leather so badly

    What is the current percentage of fat liquor (moisture) reading?

  53. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    I barely put pressure on the leather and it ripped like paper. The left arm is so dry and brittle that I'm afraid to touch it. Hydrator is like 97% water. What happens when you soak dry leather in water and leave it sit for three days? It drys out more, clearly. I should have done more research on these products before using them. The sofa is completely unusable at this point. This is an expensive sofa ruined by very expensive products that made my situation worse. Perhaps your products have good results with auto interiors or other types of leather but one size doesn't fit all.

    Roger, perhaps the sofa is just too dry or some other fluke that would make this an abnormal result. I am however very upset that the sofa is in far worse condition than when I started. Something needs to be done about this and adding more products is not the answer. Perhaps we should take this to a private discussion on the phone or email please.

  54. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    I don't know the Fatliquor content. I'm not a sofa repair person, I don't own a leather moisture reader (wouldn't even know where to get one). This is my personal sofa.

  55. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> I don't know the Fatliquor content. I'm not a sofa repair person, I don't own a leather moisture reader (wouldn't even know where to get one). This is my personal sofa.

    Check if you can rent one (wood moisture meter) from Home Depot.

  56. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> I barely put pressure on the leather and it ripped like paper. The left arm is so dry and brittle that I'm afraid to touch it. Hydrator is like 97% water. What happens when you soak dry leather in water and leave it sit for three days? It drys out more, clearly.

    When you soak leather with “water” up to 72hrs it denatures the leather.
    Existing fatliquor leaches out.

    When you soak leather with Hydrator-3.3 up to 72hrs it strengthen the ionic attraction between the leather protein fiber and its leather constituents like in this case the tanning agent and the fatliquor. Hydrator-3.3 at pH 3.3 protonates the leather so the positive (+ve) ionic strength of the protein fibers increases.

    Even without fatliquor the percentage moisture content when dries remains the same.

    Since vegetable-tanned leathers are naked or unfinished it response better than any other finished leathers. This is not the first time of usage if you check this forum.

    I have stated in the beginning that restorative cleaning is best perform prior to leather rejuvenating so that foreign contamination may not interfere with the leather rejuvenating process. Perhaps this is a situation where the problem is compounded with side effects. Ultimately the strength of leather depends on the percentage of fatliquor, and up to 14% of moisture content will not cause weakness in the leather but increase tensile strength.

    We will only know where goes wrong if we know the percentage of fatliquor when dry.

  57. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    The meter I purchased only starts at 7% and most cushions and frame aren't even being read. I got 13% reading on the one side of the frame but I did coat it with Hydrator so it's probably not a good Fatliquor reading.

    I did the restorative cleaning prior to leather rejuvenation. I have followed your steps exactly. The sofa has over 3 quarts of Fatliquor and 5.5 quarts of Hydrator and it did nothing. In fact, the leather is in worse condition.

    Edit: some cushions register at 7% but most won't even light the meter. Calibration on meter is correct.
    Last edited by veggitanned; 11-18-2014 at 02:24 PM.

  58. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> The meter I purchased only starts at 7% and most cushions and frame aren't even being read.

    If your moisture meter start at 7% “ aren’t even being read” mean that they are still below the 7% point.


    >>> I got 13% reading on the one side of the frame but I did coat it with Hydrator so it's probably not a good Fatliquor reading.


    Remember that Hydrator-3.3 one function is to precondition the leather prior to fatliquoring. When dry what are read are mainly the fat and oil contents and not the Hydrator.3.3.


    >>> I did the restorative cleaning prior to leather rejuvenation. I have followed your steps exactly. The sofa has over 3 quarts of Fatliquor and 5.5 quarts of Hydrator and it did nothing. In fact, the leather is in worse condition.

    What remains will be the fat and oil all the rest of the water contents evaporates.
    Not logical that the leather is in worse condition in terms of tensile strength.
    When dry after fatliquor, the leather stiff up due to Van der Waals also known as London Forces phenomenon. Modern tannery softens the leather thereafter with the stacking process. A little moisture like Hydrator-3.3 is slightly dampens prior to staking or massaging to prevent breakage when the leather is very dry.

  59. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Sorry, I meant to say that I had just coated the side (that read 13%) with Hydrator to clean the Fatliquor (this was the final step in the process according to your instructions) so I'm guessing that the reading is still damp from Hydrator. I'd guess the sofa as a whole is 4-7% - if I'm less than half way there and I've already put over $500 of product in then I can not continue this path. It's frankly absurd that this sofa would require $1200-1500 worth of product to restore 14% Fatliquor.

    If no other help can be offered other than "buy more product" then we'll have to conclude this. And, I'm sorry to say, the leather is indeed in worse condition than when started. I'll post photos of the arm cushion which has all but been eaten away. I plan to go with a saddle rejuvenator because this sofa needs to be usable. It's already been ruined. Compare it to the first set of photos that I posted. It's terrible now.

    Name:  9.jpg
Views: 534
Size:  94.6 KB

    Name:  10.jpg
Views: 536
Size:  84.4 KB

    Name:  11.jpg
Views: 529
Size:  108.3 KB

    Name:  12.jpg
Views: 521
Size:  59.7 KB

  60. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,525

    Default

    >>> Sorry, I meant to say that I had just coated the side (that read 13%) with Hydrator to clean the Fatliquor (this was the final step in the process according to your instructions) so I'm guessing that the reading is still damp from Hydrator. I'd guess the sofa as a whole is 4-7% - if I'm less than half way there and I've already put over $500 of product in then I can not continue this path. It's frankly absurd that this sofa would require $1200-1500 worth of product to restore 14% Fatliquor.

    Please go to your local library and borrow this book – Leather Technician’s Handbook by J.H. Sharphouse, B.Sc. You can find out the characteristic of Vegetable-Tanned leathers and why it is more fat liquor thirsty than other tanning types. How leather is soften up with tensile strength. There is nothing wrong with the system, we do accordingly to acceptable modern fatliquoring process, the only difference is we do it non-immersion. And this Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 matches out the process would be used in a modern tannery even today.

    My purpose of this forum is to educate.
    My fee to on-location jobs is $99.00 per hour.
    My private training fee is $1200/- per 8 hours.

    You can figure out that I have put in about what you have paid for the products as well and no gain for me either.
    We are both loss loss at this point when you walk away.

    I am not here to push products.

    My original recommendation was to just try out only one cushion to evaluate the result.

    We would then have the hindsight or after thought how best to proceed with unknown factors (used with unknown contamination need to be pH neutralized until bleed subsides or eliminated) prior to leather rejuvenating it.


    >>> If no other help can be offered other than "buy more product" then we'll have to conclude this. And, I'm sorry to say, the leather is indeed in worse condition than when started. I'll post photos of the arm cushion which has all but been eaten away. I plan to go with a saddle rejuvenator because this sofa needs to be usable. It's already been ruined. Compare it to the first set of photos that I posted. It's terrible now.

    I have save many leather problems from unknown products and you may find them in this forum as well. The leather characteristic one must know – check them from the Leather Technician’s Handbook. The leather products we also know very well how it works. What we do not know is what have been done to this leather in the past.

    All the tears are repairable that result looking like healing marks.

    Even this seemingly condemn situation (at midway) is restored back to normal usage without any tear.
    http://www.leathercleaningrestoratio...-from-dog-peed


    Question:

    Does this system also destroy your other “THE SPANISH CHAIR” design by Børge Mogensen?



    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    [email protected]
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 11-18-2014 at 03:47 PM.

  61. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Roger, understand please that I'm not directly blaming you. I am very upset with the results. The leather is in bad condition. I don't know what else to say. These are the facts in front of me.

    The chair actually turned out poorly too. Dry cracked creases formed around the curved areas that most certainly were not there before. I'll also post photos of these problem areas.

    I'm not walking away from the sofa, I'm walking away from these products. I'm not blaming you, but clearly they did not work for me in the least bit. Currently, I'm worse off than I started regardless the reason. I'm going to another leather company to get a hide rejuvenator because I have no other choice at this point. I just want to save the sofa. I can't afford to buy 4-6 more quarts of Fatliquor and 8-12 more quarts of Hydrator. This is seemingly what it would take to finish using your products. That amounts to well over $1000. The hide rejuvenator (which is of top quality) will cover the whole sofa for under $35. That is a big, big difference.

    Cost isn't the only factor but that number is a one I can not swallow. I need to do what needs to be done in order to save this sofa. I do appreciate your time and for whatever reason, I had little luck with the products in the end. I'm sorry for this outcome but I followed the instructions. I'm not sure what more I could have done differently.
    Last edited by veggitanned; 11-18-2014 at 03:52 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •