Louis Vuitton - Totally MM - Vachetta darkened by 2 shades!

Hello! I was looking at your kits and trying to decide which one would work best for my needs. I was cleaning my Louis Vuitton Totally MM and used a product that was highly recommended on a Facebook group I'm a part of... Well, it darkened the vachetta by 2 shades! I wasn't happy, so needless to say I hit up Google and came across an old post on leathercleaningrestorationforum.com. It showed a before and after pic using your product. The 2 products I'm looking at is Vachetta leather browning removal kit and Vachetta leather tannin remover kit. For my situation, what would be recommended? Thank you, Kay.

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The product used was Cadillac Boot & Shoe Care Leather Conditioner. I know, I know... "Boot & Shoe Care," right? Well, needless to say, lesson learned. The ultimate goal I would like is to lighten the vachetta leather, but w/o drying it out leading to further cracks. In pic #11, I assume the cracks in the vachetta is a natural progression with aged leather... I wasn't too concerned w/ it right now, unless you think I should be. My initial thought is to use Vachetta 2.8 then another product to hydrate the leather, but then I thought, "what if the product to hydrate the leather darkens the vachetta again?" I'm beginning to think maybe there isn't a product for what I'm looking for... Please advise! Your thoughts and/or recommendation(s) would be appreciated. Thanks!

>>> The product used was Cadillac Boot & Shoe Care Leather Conditioner. I know, I know... "Boot & Shoe Care," right? Well, needless to say, lesson learned.

First, we need to know the pH value of the unwanted products and remove any film or coating the unwanted conditioner remaining on the leather surface grains. If the pH value of the conditioner is higher than 7, it is very lightly it has contributed to the darkening effect. You may check them out as all products should have a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) or tested by litmus paper or a pH meter. Any solid that coats the surface may also contributes to the darkening effect as well. Such product may be applied on a piece of test leather half applied and test out relevant products to see if they are removed. Until we known it can be removed 100% that the products is used on the actual problem.

pH Neutralization or Balancing:
When pH of product is confirmed that it has a pH value above 7, then VachettaPro-1.2 (note the product suffix denotes its pH value and is extremely low – most acid at this low pH value of 1.2 becomes very dangerous – but this is specially formulated for leather with all acidic characteristic removed – so it is safe to our naked hand, thus leather). Alkaline browns leather including unbleached cotton like our pillowcase, acid on the other hand lightens any browning to leather or cotton or any cellulose. All working residue is rinse off with Acidifier-2.0 that brings back the pH chemistry integrity of the leather.

Removing Unwanted Surface Conditioner:
Degreaser-2.2 is recommended to removed oil and grease-based conditioner and rinse with Acidifier-2.0, any urethane-based residue had to be stripped with Stripper-2.3

We need the above information and testing before we proceed with the actual application after inspecting the conditions of the existing leather with my next post.

When was the last time you have applied the unwanted conditioner?

How much you have used?

Does the darkening effect becomes immediately after it dries or much later?

- I couldn't find the MSDS info on their bottle or website. I sent an email through their website requesting MSDS and still waiting for their response. I will update once/if I get a response.

- It was applied on Sunday, Feb. 28th

- I'm not quite sure how to answer this, but I applied the product on every part of the vachetta. I only went over it once.

- It darkens immediately after it dried.

(btw, I don't think I'm responding correctly...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kay M

- I couldn't find the MSDS info on their bottle or website. I sent an email through their website requesting MSDS and still waiting for their response. I will update once/if I get a response.

- It was applied on Sunday, Feb. 28th

- I'm not quite sure how to answer this, but I applied the product on every part of the vachetta. I only went over it once.

- It darkens immediately after it dried.

(btw, I don't think I'm responding correctly...)

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Update: I finally received a response and the PH value is 4.5

With the unwanted product information we may skip the pH Neutralization process mention in post #4.

And we may proceed with this holistic approach with cleaning to removed the unwanted products, rejuvenating the leather for suppleness to control existing cracking and lightening the vachetta leather for appearance.

1 - Cleaning:
The unwanted products has to be removed with Degreaser-2.2 > Acidifier-2.0 system, without using Stripper-2.3 for further drying up the fatliquor content (ionic charged fat and oil) as shown by picture #11. Besides the dried ‘mud cracking’ effect, stitch tears are visible as well that shows weakness of the leather from diminishing original fatliquor. Leather is not allow to be 100% dry at this stage but continue with at least 25% moisture content with Hydrator-3.3.

2 - Leather Rejuvenating:
While the leather is towel extracted after Acidifier-2.0 until towel shows dry or about 25% total moisture content, Hydrator-3.3 further cleans and continues to relax the leather structure, preconditions it for Fatliquor-5.0 for a more even distribution and appearance. The leather is left to slow natural drying.

3 – Leather lightening:
Leather lightening process is with Vachetta-2.8, a pH 2.8 redox (reduction-oxidation) reaction that will lighten up vachetta leathers.

4 – Repairs and Protection
Non-stick draggy-feel protection against sticking soiling and sealing of surface scuff and micro cracking is performed with Protector-D.

>>> The 2 products I'm looking at is Vachetta leather browning removal kit and Vachetta leather tannin remover kit. For my situation, what would be recommended?

With reference to the above holistic sequence of process and products systems mentioned are found in this Kit-V4
http://www.leatherdoctor.com/kit-v4-...g-removal-kit/

Attachment 6220
Leather Doctor® Kit V4 specialty problem solving kit include Vachetta-2.8 for browning removal and Degreaser-2.2 for body contact decontamination systems in a holistic approach. Kit V4 is a combination kit from Kit V3 and Kit V5.dr without duplicating of products for these common related problems.

Darkening appearance from body contact and browning from liquid stain are two main inevitable common problems associated with naked unfinished vachetta leathers. Leather being absorbent absorb and accumulates body moisture from contact and when neglected resulted in a darkening appearance. Besides appearance the sweat with traces of urea may cause the protein fiber from shifting ionic negative (-ve) manifesting as tackiness and reverting to rawhide.

Degreaser-2.2 solves the darkening effect by penetrating, lubricating and suspending the soiling particulates and simultaneously protonate the protein fiber ionic positive (+ve). The amphoteric protein fiber is further rinse and ionic positive (+ve) charge with Acidifier-2.0 to strengthen the ionic attraction between its other non-amphoteric ionic negative (-ve) leather constituents like the tanning agent and the fatliquor. This dual duty removes the unwanted soiling particulates and pH balance the pH chemistry integrity of the leather at the same time.

Leather rejuvenating is mandatory and comes next when appearance become satisfactorily. This is accomplished with Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 system. Hydrator-3.3 plays a significant role in absorbent leathers like vachetta where stains are usually penetrated. The hydrator’s surfactancy helps internal leather structure colloidal movement by moving suspended soiling particulates to the surface at each wicking process until exhausted and is often used as part of the rinsing process. Besides hydrator is used to check for surface tension and relax the leather fiber prior to ionic negative (-ve) charged Fatliquor-5.0 replenishing. Natural slow drying in between application until saturation produces a softer leather.

Browning of vachetta leathers is associated with alkaline over-exposure, vachetta being a lower pH value than most other tanned leathers averages pH 4 is more sensitive to alkaline cleaning or stains and even water at pH 7 will cause discoloration and browning. Another browning or seasoning effect is associated with UV lights typically exposed to sunlight, just like our light colored skin being sun tanned. Yet another browning association with unknown products absorbed and even too much moisture content will affect the appearance one or two shade more intense just like the color of the clouds. To keep the leather supple with softness and strength from developing cracks, a well season (up to 14% of fatliqiuor content) leathers is highly recommended over appearance. Vachetta-2.8 with its low pH works by oxidation-reduction reaction to reduce the discoloration or browning effect to a more even appearance when the leather is left to dry naturally.

Protecting the leather with Protector-D impart a natural draggy-feel and reduces wear to the grain of the leather, conceal scuff with its healing properties that also allows transpiration to take place or breaths naturally. Note that the mentioned products suffix numbers denotes its pH value in this holistic approach to removing the common problems associated with vachetta, saddlery and veg-tan leathers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Koh

With the unwanted product information we may skip the pH Neutralization process mention in post #4.

And we may proceed with this holistic approach with cleaning to removed the unwanted products, rejuvenating the leather for suppleness to control existing cracking and lightening the vachetta leather for appearance.

1 - Cleaning:
The unwanted products has to be removed with Degreaser-2.2 > Acidifier-2.0 system, without using Stripper-2.3 for further drying up the fatliquor content (ionic charged fat and oil) as shown by picture #11. Besides the dried ‘mud cracking’ effect, stitch tears are visible as well that shows weakness of the leather from diminishing original fatliquor. Leather is not allow to be 100% dry at this stage but continue with at least 25% moisture content with Hydrator-3.3.

2 - Leather Rejuvenating:
While the leather is towel extracted after Acidifier-2.0 until towel shows dry or about 25% total moisture content, Hydrator-3.3 further cleans and continues to relax the leather structure, preconditions it for Fatliquor-5.0 for a more even distribution and appearance. The leather is left to slow natural drying.

3 – Leather lightening:
Leather lightening process is with Vachetta-2.8, a pH 2.8 redox (reduction-oxidation) reaction that will lighten up vachetta leathers.

4 – Repairs and Protection
Non-stick draggy-feel protection against sticking soiling and sealing of surface scuff and micro cracking is performed with Protector-D.

>>> The 2 products I'm looking at is Vachetta leather browning removal kit and Vachetta leather tannin remover kit. For my situation, what would be recommended?

With reference to the above holistic sequence of process and products systems mentioned are found in this Kit-V4
http://www.leatherdoctor.com/kit-v4-...g-removal-kit/

Attachment 6220
Leather Doctor® Kit V4 specialty problem solving kit include Vachetta-2.8 for browning removal and Degreaser-2.2 for body contact decontamination systems in a holistic approach. Kit V4 is a combination kit from Kit V3 and Kit V5.dr without duplicating of products for these common related problems.

Darkening appearance from body contact and browning from liquid stain are two main inevitable common problems associated with naked unfinished vachetta leathers. Leather being absorbent absorb and accumulates body moisture from contact and when neglected resulted in a darkening appearance. Besides appearance the sweat with traces of urea may cause the protein fiber from shifting ionic negative (-ve) manifesting as tackiness and reverting to rawhide.

Degreaser-2.2 solves the darkening effect by penetrating, lubricating and suspending the soiling particulates and simultaneously protonate the protein fiber ionic positive (+ve). The amphoteric protein fiber is further rinse and ionic positive (+ve) charge with Acidifier-2.0 to strengthen the ionic attraction between its other non-amphoteric ionic negative (-ve) leather constituents like the tanning agent and the fatliquor. This dual duty removes the unwanted soiling particulates and pH balance the pH chemistry integrity of the leather at the same time.

Leather rejuvenating is mandatory and comes next when appearance become satisfactorily. This is accomplished with Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 system. Hydrator-3.3 plays a significant role in absorbent leathers like vachetta where stains are usually penetrated. The hydrator’s surfactancy helps internal leather structure colloidal movement by moving suspended soiling particulates to the surface at each wicking process until exhausted and is often used as part of the rinsing process. Besides hydrator is used to check for surface tension and relax the leather fiber prior to ionic negative (-ve) charged Fatliquor-5.0 replenishing. Natural slow drying in between application until saturation produces a softer leather.

Browning of vachetta leathers is associated with alkaline over-exposure, vachetta being a lower pH value than most other tanned leathers averages pH 4 is more sensitive to alkaline cleaning or stains and even water at pH 7 will cause discoloration and browning. Another browning or seasoning effect is associated with UV lights typically exposed to sunlight, just like our light colored skin being sun tanned. Yet another browning association with unknown products absorbed and even too much moisture content will affect the appearance one or two shade more intense just like the color of the clouds. To keep the leather supple with softness and strength from developing cracks, a well season (up to 14% of fatliqiuor content) leathers is highly recommended over appearance. Vachetta-2.8 with its low pH works by oxidation-reduction reaction to reduce the discoloration or browning effect to a more even appearance when the leather is left to dry naturally.

Protecting the leather with Protector-D impart a natural draggy-feel and reduces wear to the grain of the leather, conceal scuff with its healing properties that also allows transpiration to take place or breaths naturally. Note that the mentioned products suffix numbers denotes its pH value in this holistic approach to removing the common problems associated with vachetta, saddlery and veg-tan leathers.

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I just purchased the kit you recommended and will be anxiously for it. Is post #7 the directions for application process? Once received, I most likely will contact you again to confirm/guide me with the process.

My order is being delivered today and would like directions on how to properly do this. Is post #7 the directions I should follow or?... Please let me know asap. Thank you!

Follow post #7 instruction.

Please ask more details if you wish.

Your leather has shown signs of visible cracking and the leather should not be let completely dry after step 1 as explained otherwise cracking becomes more visible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Koh

With the unwanted product information we may skip the pH Neutralization process mention in post #4.

And we may proceed with this holistic approach with cleaning to removed the unwanted products, rejuvenating the leather for suppleness to control existing cracking and lightening the vachetta leather for appearance.


2 - Leather Rejuvenating:
While the leather is towel extracted after Acidifier-2.0 until towel shows dry or about 25% total moisture content, Hydrator-3.3 further cleans and continues to relax the leather structure, preconditions it for Fatliquor-5.0 for a more even distribution and appearance. The leather is left to slow natural drying.

3 – Leather lightening:
Leather lightening process is with Vachetta-2.8, a pH 2.8 redox (reduction-oxidation) reaction that will lighten up vachetta leathers.

4 – Repairs and Protection
Non-stick draggy-feel protection against sticking soiling and sealing of surface scuff and micro cracking is performed with Protector-D.

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I've completed steps 1 and waiting for it to dry in step 2. I noticed you mention, "preconditions it for Fatliquor-5.0", but I see no further mention of the use of Fatliquor 5.0 in the additional steps. Can you please advise if there's additional steps I'm missing or not? Thank you!

>>> I've completed steps 1 and waiting for it to dry in step 2. I noticed you mention, "preconditions it for Fatliquor-5.0", but I see no further mention of the use of Fatliquor 5.0 in the additional steps. Can you please advise if there's additional steps I'm missing or not? Thank you!

Step 2 is a continuation of Step 1 without the leather being completely dry, otherwise existing cracks may become more evident.
The bottle itself has individual instructions and for more reading you may go to the individual products as found in example here:

http://www.leatherdoctor.com/hydrator-3-3/

Leather Doctor Hydrator-3.3 is a waterbased pH 3.3 leather-safe hydrator. It is a fatliquor preconditioner with multi functional abilities. Surface application is primary to check for even surface tension free of blotchiness prior to fatliquor replenishing. Structural application will require saturating to an optimum level with moisture oozing out when gently pressed between thumb and fingers. This universal Hydrator-3.3 is for all leather types including pigmented, aniline, vachetta, nubuck, suede, hair-on-hide and woolskin.

The multi functional abilities include:

a) To check for surface tension for an even appearance free from blotchiness prior to fatliquor replenishing.

b) To plumps, relaxes and separates crushed, shrunk and stick together fibrils for manipulating away-unwanted creases and wrinkles.

c) To clean the leather of structural foreign contamination, the plump and limp leather is squeeze with towel laid between the leather and a smooth spatula or equivalent.

d) To rectify alkaline overexposure areas by facilitating colloidal water movement to redistribute the leather constituents from surrounding areas.

e) To activate the dormant dyestuff within the leather structure for color refreshing.

f) To facilitates colloidal water movement within the inter-fibrillary spaces for wicking foreign soiling particulates to resurface.

g) To stabilize, pH balance and charge the protein fiber below its iso-electric point (pI) ionic positive to hydrogen bond with the ionic negative fatliquor more effectively.

Instruction:

A. Surface Tension Inspection:

A1. Spray Hydrator-3.3 evenly and wipe with lint free towel to free of surface tension for an even appearance prior to fatliquor replenishing.

B. Stiffness, Creases and Wrinkles:

B1. Saturate the thickness of the leather to an optimum level with moistures oozing out when gently pressed between thumb and fingers.

B2. Cover up with plastic wrapping to control evaporation and let it dwell up to 72hrs for softness.

B3. Manipulate by stretching and cross flexing to relax the leather to satisfaction prior to fatliquor replenishing.

B4. With satisfaction the Fatliquor-5.0 has to be immediately replenished while the leather is perhaps at 25% Hydrator-3.3 moisture level.

C. Cleaning:

C1). A combination of cleaning while saturating the leather is done with horsehair Brush-1 on the surface and towel extracting it. Deep cleaning beneath the surface from the leather structure for liquid stain is done with squeezing the leather with a smooth spatula with a towel in between to reduce abrasion and absorbing the foreign contamination – See F below

D. Rectify Alkaline Overexposure:

D1. Saturate the thickness of the leather to an optimum level with moistures oozing out when gently pressed between thumb and fingers.

D2. Cover up with plastic wrapping to control evaporation and let it dwell for redistributing of the leather constituents from surrounding area.

D3. Observe for appearance and test by finger for tactile squeaky feel prior to fatliquor replenishing.

E. Activating Dormant Dyestuff to Resurface:

E1. Saturate the thickness of the leather to an optimum level with moistures oozing out when gently pressed between thumb and fingers.

E2. Cover up with plastic wrapping to control evaporation and let it dwell up to 72 hours for excess dyestuff to resurface.

E3. Remove plastic cover and let it natural dry to observe color improvement prior to fatliquor replenishing.

F. Removing Penetrated Stains:

F1. Saturate the thickness of the leather to an optimum level with moistures oozing out when gently pressed between thumb and fingers.

F2. Cover up with plastic wrapping to control evaporation and let it dwell up to 72 hours for foreign soiling particulates to resurface.

F3. Remove plastic wrapping, replace with tissue paper without airspace to trap stains as it dries instead of remaining on the surface. Recommend that Fatliquor-5.0 is replenished in combination at this stage especially if the leather has already show signs of cracking.

F4. Peel tissue paper when crispy dry and erase with Eraser-4 or Eraser-5 for suede accordingly prior to fatliquor replenishing.


http://www.leatherdoctor.com/fatliquor-5-0/

Leather Doctor Fatliquor-5.0 is an anionic negative (-ve) charged micro emulsion of fat, oil and water for rejuvenating all leather types. It is typically used in conjunction after Hydrator-3.3 relaxing and opening up the fibrous leather structure. It softens the leather when dry with stretchability, compressibility and flexibility, while enhancing its rip tensile strength greatly. It is for replenishing the original fat and oil that diminishes thru sun bleaching, ageing, heat and alkaline overexposure or cleaning. On application, the water-encased molecule breaks free when ionic attraction takes place between the fat and oil with the leather protein fiber. The excess free water content wicks out leaving a breathing space behind for leather natural transpiration. The fat plumps the leather with fullness from easily collapsing into creases and wrinkles during stress or flex, while the oil lubricates the fibers so that they slide over one another smoothly like millions of inter-connecting hinges. Thus helps to keep leather at its optimum physical performance and prevent premature ageing. This universal Fatliquor-5.0 is for all leather types including pigmented, aniline, vachetta, nubuck, suede, hair-on-hide and woolskin.

The quantities of fatliquor (fat and oil) contents retained in the leather after an universal tannery fatliquoring process may varies up to 14% depending on the leather types and it usage. This percentage drops as the fat and oil content diminishes or leaches through ageing, water, heat or chemical overexposure.

Leather rejuvenating or fatliquor replenishing is base on weight of the leather in relation to the percentage of remaining fatliquor. A simple calculation of percentage of fatliquor topping up requirement would be as follows:

If the weight of the leather in question is 100gm and fatliquor (fat and oil) content meter reading is less than 1%.

By applying 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to it will deliver an end result incremental of 13.3% fatliquor when dry as the 66.6% water contents evaporates.

In the leather rejuvenating Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system, Hydrator-3.3 plays an important role by relaxing, opening up the inter-fibrillary spaces, facilitating and redistributing colloidal water movement, protonating and doing all the pre-conditioning work prior to fatliquoring including cleaning up any excess surface remnants to have a sticky-free surface. In practice with severe dryness the ratio for Hydrator-3.3 is 2 to 1 of Fatliquor-5.0.

It works out to be approximately 160gm of Hydrator-3.3 plus 80gm of Fatliquor-5.0 to replenish a 100gm dry leather from less than 1% back to the original tannery up to 14% fatliquor content.

Instruction:

1 Apply Fatliquor-5.0 and redistribute with foam brush until saturation.

2 Repeat applications each time water contents evaporate until fully saturated.

3 Drive remaining surface remnants free of milky fat and oil until it turns clear with Hydrator-3.3.

4 Allow natural drying for extra softness.

5 Suppleness for vegetable-tanned leathers is further stake or massage or flex accordingly with a little wet back with Hydrator-3.3 prior to doing so to prevent cracking from under replenished leather.

Tips:

1 When crispy dry, prior surface contaminations/damages may darkens as soiling particulates resurface.

2 Removes soiling particulates with Eraser-4 for all leathers including nubuck and Eraser-5 for suede.

3 Stretching the darken areas lightly will also lightens the appearance.



Tips:

Read up all the product information and get familiar with them - ask question if it is not clear before you use them.

More readings for Vachetta-2.8 from this link:
http://www.leatherdoctor.com/vachetta-2-8/

Product Description

Vachetta-2.8 is a specialty leather cleaner formulated especially for unfinished veg-tan leathers popularly known as Vachetta. This is a waterbased pH 2.8 cleaner that is particularly effective in emulsifying oily and greasy soiling, lightening suntan, tarnish and water staining effect by reduction-oxidation (redox) reaction. It is use in conjunction with Hydrator-3.3, Fatliquor-5.0 and Protector-D in a holistic care system. To prevents existing cracks from accentuating and magnifying, rejuvenate the leather with Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system and let it dry prior treating with Vachetta-2.8. Use in conjunction with Hydrator-3.3 to relax, Fatliquor-5.0 to soften before for dried leathers thus prevents cracking and Protector-D to seal, conceal and allow leather transpiration in a holistic care system. When Vachetta leather color turns dark with evident of crack in most cases especially to constant body contact areas like handles, it will require Degreaser-2.2 follows with Acidifier-2.0 found in Kit V4 to decontaminate the oil, grease and sweat in continuous process with Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-2.2. In other words the leather is not recommend to be dried without sufficient (up to 14%) percentage of fatliquor, otherwise the existing cracks will be accentuated or magnified.

Size options available in ‘RTU’ and ‘Fill’ version.RTU is ready-to-use straight from the bottle. Fill is concentrate ratio in the bottle to be cut and fill with 3 parts distilled water prior to use to save on shipping.

For help and technical support – Visit: http://www.leathercleaningrestoratio...orum/index.php

Instruction:

Browning Stain Removal:
1. Remove dry soil prior to product application - use Eraser-4 (http://www.leatherdoctor.com/leathereraser-4/)
2. Shake well, spray and saturate with horsehair brushing for an even appearance and towel extract until it shows clean.
3. Option is to use a saturate cotton swab and clean until the cotton swab shows clean or use a terry towel.
4. Let natural drying and inspect result, repeat as necessary.

Where leathers have shown sign of cracking, it is recommended that they are rejuvenated with Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system, let completely dry prior to browning treatment with Vachetta-2.8.

Hydrate Stiff Leathers:
Visit: http://www.leatherdoctor.com/hydrator-3-3/

Soften Leather from Cracking when Dry
Visit: http://www.leatherdoctor.com/fatliquor-5-0/

Protect Leather with Sealing and Concealing Effects
Visit: http://www.leatherdoctor.com/protector-d/


Ask if you are not too sure!