Results 1 to 51 of 51

Thread: Caring for high-end dress shoes

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default Caring for high-end dress shoes

    Hello, I have a collection of high end dress shoes that are made up with calfskin, and some with shell cordovan. I want to be able to keep the vamp, where they flex from cracking over time. In the past I have spent good money on shoes only to find them cracking after a couple of years. I want to delay this for as long as possible. I generally don't wear my good shoes in the rain, however sometimes it is inevitable. When they get wet what kind of cleaning should be done to get the dirt and water spots off? How should they be conditioned afterwards? What kind of general conditioning should be done on them and how frequently?

    From reading though this forum this is what I interpret:

    IF they get wet and water spots, let them dry naturally and use Clean 3.8, then Rinse 3.0 followed by Hydrator 3.3 and Fatliquor 5.0.

    For general maintenance Hydrator 3.3, followed by Fatliquor 5.0

    Is this correct?

    A couple of more specific questions:

    1. Are your products natural?
    2. What are the ingredients? Do you have MSDS sheets for them?
    3. Is it really necessary to use both Clean 3.8 and Rinse 3.0?
    4. Is it really necessary to use both Hydrator 3.3 and Fatliquor 5.0?
    5.This study says a ph of a substance of around 3 is damaging to leather, why do you advocate the use of cleaners with a ph of around 3?
    http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jre...n4p559_A2b.pdf
    6. My shoes have a "crust" finish, where the dyes were applied by the shoemaker with no other kind of top coat other than wax polish, are your products still suitable for this type of finish?
    7. Can I polish over your treatments with wax shoe polish?

    Thank you for taking the time to read through my essay!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> 5.This study says a ph of a substance of around 3 is damaging to leather, why do you advocate the use of cleaners with a ph of around 3?
    http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jre...n4p559_A2b.pdf


    This information is about the leather damaging effect with "SULPHURIC ACID" - am I right?

    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 04-26-2014 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Correct.

    Also to add it seems after reviewing some other posts in this forum that ph isn't everything. There seems to be another conversation of polarity. Is there a direct correlation between ph and polarity? I would think not. For example, acetone can strip grease like crazy as can turpintine, however acetone's ph is neutral compared to turpentine, which is acidic. I'm guessing it has to do with polarity. Maybe you can educate me on that as it's very interesting. Thank you!
    Last edited by patrickBOOTH; 04-26-2014 at 01:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Correct.

    Not to worry, we do not use “sulphuric” acid as a content in any of our formulation.

    I can demonstrate using a bottle of Rinse-3.0 (pH 3.0) to sanitize my face and acidify my hair as well to prove that what is safe for our skin is also safe for leather, But NEVER with “sulfuric” acid of any pH dilution.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    So why does one substance with a ph of 3 have a different acidic characteristic than another with a ph of 3?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> So why does one substance with a ph of 3 have a different acidic characteristic than another with a ph of 3?

    Interesting!

    I am just as perplex!

    So why does all we human with the same DNA stiff differs in character - May gives us a clue?
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 04-26-2014 at 02:26 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Very strange indeed. Would you be so kind as to answer some of my previous questions?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Also to add it seems after reviewing some other posts in this forum that ph isn't everything.

    Because leather protein fiber is an amphoteric material and an amphoteric material is influence by pH value. A pH value above the iso-electric point (pI) or leather pH neutral (3 to 5) will shift the protein fiber ionic negative (-ve) and a pH value below the pI will shift it ionic positive (+ve).

    Its other leather constituents like the tanning agents, fatliquor and dyestuff are non-amphoteric and are commonly ionic negative (-ve).

    At the molecular level ion behaves like magnet “unlike poles attracts”.

    When the protein leather is ionic positive (+ve) charged, it has the attraction for the ionic negative (-ve) charged other leather constituents.

    With this hydrogen bonding the rawhides or skin is transform into leather.

    When this hydrogen bonding is break off (like poles repels) the leather constituents leach out and the leather reverts to rawhide.

    The pH for leather cleaning should be on the acidic side of the pH scale (mild 3 – 5) with leather-safe characteristic as well. Sulphuric characteristic even with a pH of 3 will damage leather.

    Is there a logic with pH so far?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    So basically leather is ionic positive and it's tanning agents and conditioners are ionic negative which is what makes them accept each other. If something comes into contact with the leather that shifts the leather ionic negative it repels the tanning agents and conditioners. Is this correct? What kinds of things can shift leather protein fibers ionic negative? Are the things that can do this typically of a certain ph?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> So basically leather is ionic positive.

    Careful here, it is the leather “protein fiber” that is ionic positive (+ve).
    Leather in general is protein fiber plus tanning agent plus dyestuff plus fatliquor and each contribute a part to the whole. And because of these chemistry that transform rawhide into leather it influence the overall pH value of the leather to be around pH 3 to 5.


    >>> If something comes into contact with the leather that shifts the leather ionic negative it repels the tanning agents and conditioners. Is this correct?


    It should be if any solution including water that comes into contact with the leather “protein fiber” that shifts the leather protein fiber ionic negative (-ve) it will repel the other ionic negative (-ve) leather constituents like the tanning agents, dyestuff and fatliquor is correct.


    >>> What kinds of things can shift leather protein fibers ionic negative?

    Any solution, a puddle of salted water with a pH of 8 will dries as rings or marks especially on unfinished leather like vachetta and pure aniline, including nubuck and suede are leather as well. A window cleaner with ammonia content will turn the leather sticky – reverting to rawhide.


    >>> Are the things that can do this typically of a certain pH?


    Rainwater average pH 7 (depends on area that dissolves sulphuric acid from atmosphere causes acid rains that kills fishes as well) will leave marks on leather as sometimes a light pastel absorbent leather behaves like litmus paper and will read even clean tap water (pH 7) with rings and yellowing effect.

    A higher pH of 10 is ammonia a content in most window or glass cleaner.

    Most dish washing detergent are alkaline with a pH of 8 to 9 dries our skin as well besides leaching out the fatliquor that leave the leather stiff and when flex cracks.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 04-26-2014 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Got you. Could you address questions 1, 3, 4, 6 and 7? Thank you!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Are your products natural?

    Not sure if water is considered a natural product – What do you think?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Are you saying all of your products are made with nothing but water?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Are your products natural?

    >>> Not sure if water is considered a natural product – What do you think?


    You may answer Yes or No and we can continue discussing and learning as we go along.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Um as a layperson I would answer yes. I can't tell whether you're being funny, or purposely agitated...

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Um as a layperson I would answer yes


    If water is natural and formulated with ingredients derived from (vegetation, animals and minerals) what do you think our products is... natural or not natural?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    So this is a roundabout way of saying everything "technically" is natural.

    Can you address my other questions?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> 2. What are the ingredients? Do you have MSDS sheets for them?

    You may find the ingredients mentioned in Section 2 from these MSDS sheets.

    http://www.leathercleaningrestoratio...er-Doctor-MSDS


    Let me know which other particular products you are interested and I will post it there.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Thank you. Can you answer numbers 3, 4, 6, and 7?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Still wondering if Clean, Rinse, Hydrator are all necessary products for simple care of leather shoes. I am thinking I might only need one, or two of those products in addition to fatliquor. If Hydrator has a ph of 3.3 could this just be used to clean off some water marks if exposed to rain water? Is the clean and rinse step only for much more soiled types of situations? Also, can I polish over these application with regular shoe polish that contains coconut oil, carnauba, beeswax, and d-limonene?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Hi Roger, I placed my order, but I still have a few outstanding questions.

    I have to assume that most of your shoes are aniline with a gloss or satin finish.
    We will use this Aniline (A) Leather Problem Solving Guide as reference.


    Name:  Aniline (A).jpg
Views: 538
Size:  374.4 KB


    >>> Are there conditions where both Clean and Rinse should be used one after the other, or are there conditions I can only use one. For example, for just routine maintenance vs. getting caught walking a long time in the rain?

    In the above guide you see the severity of soiling or problems is horizontal and the solution to the problem in sequence is in vertical column. In the light routine maintenance Clean-3.8 is follow after with Rinse-3.0. And in routine pH neutralizing Rinse-3.0 alone is used. In a water stain or damaged situation Clean-3.8 is used as option while Acidifier-2.0 is used to neutralize alkaline solution overexposure that results in browning rings or marks. Hydrator-3.3 is used to further bring penetrated foreign soiling from inside the leather structure to the surface by “reverse transfer” technique.


    >>> Same question goes for both Hydrator and Fatliquor?

    Hydrator-3.3 is a multi functional product and in a water damaged situation facilitates colloidal water movement from the inter-fibrillary spaces bring up or wicking foreign particulates. The secondary function is preconditioning the leather protein fiber protonating it to strengthen it positive (+ve) ionic attraction with the other leather constituents especially for the Fatliquor-5.0 to effectively hydrogen bond with the leather protein fiber to impart fullness with its fats, lubricates the internal fiber structure so that each will slide over one another smoothly without breaking it thus prevents stiffness and cracking.


    >>> If nothing comes into contact with my shoes, other than just wearing them and brushing them before and after wear how often should I do the Hydrator -> Fatliquor treatment?

    A well lubricated shoe both the outside and the inside leather lining will make the shoe very comfortable to wear.
    When a shoe is too dry it tightens, feel stiff and when flex will leads to cracks. When a shoe is well lubricated with Fatliquor-5.0 the shoe is more elastic and stretchable thus more comfortable to wear.


    >>> Do I need to use both in this case?

    It is always recommended that the leather protein fiber is first relaxed and protonated prior to effective Fatliquor-5.0 replenishing. Other function of Hydrator-3.3 is to reduce surface tension. The external surface of the shoe is first hydrated to ensure that it has an even appearance prior to fatliquor replenish it. To ensure that the fatliquor will have a good distribution with even absorbent rate without steaks, marks or rings.


    >>> Will using a beeswax and coconut oil polish over your products do anything negative?


    Any traditional wax will build up and clogs the leather pores not only distort the beauty of the grain and scuff easily and unsightly, it also retards the leather natural transpiration for wearing comfort – the feet becomes sweaty with moisture trap. Modern topcoat with super soft urethane serves a better purpose to determine the exact luster sheen of choice to contrast section of the shoe with ease. Example is with AnilineTop-76/21 gloss or satin.

    Coconut oil polishes are stuffing oils and it saturate the inter-fibrilliary spaces or pores suffocating the natural leather transpiration for breathing comfort, just like wearing a non-breathing rubber or plastic cheap shoe. Besides on the lighter pastel color that is absorbent, it will certainly impart an undesirable darkening effect.

    Waterproofing for leather is defined as, even though the leather appears wet outside the inside is dry. Likens to a wooden boat that is wet on the outside and dries the inside, the shoe appears wet but the feet inside is dry and comfortable. These are leather that is plumps with fatliquor with the fat become solid at room temperature and with either oil or wax pull-up as secondary conditioner to impart the waterproofing effect. Such natural waterproofing pull-up effects are namely derived from Leather Doctor® Oil Effect-2.8 and Wax Effect-8.6.


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    info@LeatherDoctor.com

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Thanks so much Roger, one more question. Are water mark by themselves a bad thing or is it mostly cosmetic. If you have already done Clean followed by Rinse and there is still a slight mark is that necessarily affecting the integrity of the leather?

    I ask because all of my shoes are black and sometimes it can be very hard to even tell if there is a stain, at an arms distance, but if you look really hard sometimes you can "nitpick" and see a mark.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Are watermark by themselves a bad thing or is it mostly cosmetic. If you have already done Clean followed by Rinse and there is still a slight mark is that necessarily affecting the integrity of the leather? I ask because all of my shoes are black and sometimes it can be very hard to even tell if there is a stain, at an arms distance, but if you look really hard sometimes you can "nitpick" and see a mark.

    When we talk about leather we are talking more about the thickness integrity of the leather more than the surfaces finishes. When examine carefully at this dried stain we may see the edges indented or a sort of vertical shrinkage has occurred where the fiber structure collapse, becomes stiffer and the fugitive leather constituents leached out and deposited at the edges which sometimes forms a ridge noticeable from the feel of our finger tips.

    Surface cleaning is done with Clean-3.8 (mild), Strong Clean-4.3 (strong), Super Clean-4.9 (super) or Prep-4.4 (prep) to match the degree of soiling severity. Rinse-3.0 further removes all residues to a healthy squeaky clean that ends the holistic cleaning system.

    Below surface or leather structure cleaning will need the help of Hydrator-3.3 working with its surface-active-agent or surfactancy to moves colloid or foreign soiling particulates to the surface through the wicking process. Techniques includes “reverse transferring” the soiling particulates through a stretchable paper towel (comes with the kit) after the Hydrator-3.3 helps to simultaneously protonates the protein leather fiber and redistributing the leather constituents back to hydrogen bond with ionic positive (+ve) charged sites. This Hydrator-3.3 active phenomenon helps reverse the pH in-balance thus restores the pH chemistry integrity of the leather. To further soften the leather when dry for softness and strength Fatliquor-5.0 is replenished with each absorbent and drying cycle, when the water contents evaporates more is replenished until the leather becomes fully saturated with subsequent fatliquor application.

    Old shoes that have shrink and becomes tight to wear will soon be very comfortable to wear again with the Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 system. This is done on the insides as well if the lining is also of leather or suede.

    Protector-B+ will help to smoothen the leather to reduce friction rubs and helps to easily slide leather or suede lining shoes in and out smoothly as an extension of our skin.

    Product information:

    Name:  a20791f14538ddf85cf003_m.jpg
Views: 401
Size:  31.4 KB
    http://www.leatherdoctor.com/servlet...%29/Categories

    Leather Doctor Kit A3 – Aniline Leather Care Kit
    Leather Doctor® Kit A3, aniline leather care kit is an innovative leather-safe (pH 3 - 5) system designed for keeping leathers at their highest level of appearance, maintaining its pH chemistry integrity, enhancing their suppleness and prevents premature ageing. Leathers that faced the sun, closed to fireplace and heaters dries out the fat and oil that keeps it supple sooner than the non-heat exposed areas. The diminishing of the fat and oil through evaporation results in the leather fibers being stick closer together that results in stiffness and when flexed during used will lead to cracks. Periodic use of Hydrator-3.3 to plumps the stick together fibers prior to fat and oil replenishing with Fatliquor-5.0 will keep the leather supple and strong. Thus, reduce the premature ageing of the leather against stiffness and cracking. The surface wear of the leather is greatly reduced with friction noise reduction. This is preventable with a rub-resistant Protector-B+ that imparts a natural buttery-feel. Periodic cleaning and rinsing with Cleaner-3.8 follows by Rinse-3.0 to the bare body contact areas like headrest and armrest helps reduce greasy soiling build-up. Restorative cleaning and occasional dye stains removal from new blue jeans is accomplished with Prep-4.4. Note that the mentioned product suffix number denotes its pH value in this leather-safe holistic care system.
    Instruction:

    Preventive Care:
    A non-stick, rub-resistant protection is recommended to be in place before putting the leather to daily use. Protector-B+ imparts a soft natural buttery-feel that enhances the leather luxuriously to the sense of touch. The non-stick surface shields the leather from sticky soiling thus prolonging the high level of appearance. Rub-resistant abilities reduce friction noises that translate into less friction wear. This leather-scented protector diffuses a classic leather scent that boost the sensuous leather more appealing to the leather lover. This preventive care is kept in place at each level of routine, periodic or restorative cleaning cycle. A simply spray and wipe prolongs the need for cleaning heavy soiling.
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ spread with lint free towel and is ready for use when dry.

    Routine Care:
    Routine care includes procedures such as general dust cleaning, attending to spots and stains as required especially the neutralizing of swear stains from shifting alkaline. Thus prevents leather from tackiness. A routine non-stick rub resistant protection after neutralizing rinse helps keep leather in a more attractive and healthy state while preventing premature wears.
    1. Spray Rinse-3.0, horsehair Brush-1 agitates and towel extract until it shows clean.
    2. Mist sprays Protector-B+ spread with lint free towel and is ready for use when dry.

    Periodic Care:
    Periodic care is recommended before soiling causes damages to the finishing. This keeps leather consistently clean and healthy at all times. Body contact areas would require more frequent attention than the unused areas. While the leather headrest and hand rest gets the most of body oil and sweat contacts.
    1st phase – Periodic Care:
    1. Spray Cleaner-3.8 and agitate with horsehair Brush-1; ensuring a uniform application over the entire surfaces a section at a time.
    2. Towel extract until it shows clean.
    3. Remaining residues are spray rinse with Rinse-3.0 and towel extract to a squeaky-clean.
    4. Let dry and inspect for satisfaction, otherwise repeat cleaning process as necessary or proceed to hydrating.
    2nd phase – Hydrating:
    Hydrating is essential to relax and separate the stick together collapsing fibrous structure. Moreover, it is used to check for surface tension from blotchiness prior to fat and oil replenishing.
    1. Spray Hydrator-3.3 to check for an even appearance.
    3rd phase – Fat and Oil Replenishing:
    Fatliquor evaporates as VOC (volatile organic compound) when temperature rises especially from exposed surfaces. Periodic fat and oil replenishing maintains the leather’s structure integrity and pliability thus strengthen these exposed leather from cracking.
    1. Spray Fatliquor-5.0 in like manner as Hydrator-3.3 and let dry naturally.
    2. Repeat application in between drying until saturated.
    3. The leather is left for slow natural drying for extra softness.
    4. Surface strays are wiped with Hydrator-3.3 to free of sticky residue.
    4th phase – Preventive Care
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ spread with lint free towel and is ready for use when dry.

    Restorative Care:
    This is the ultimate restorative or salvage care system that removes accumulated soiling including aged conditioners. Accumulated soiling that fills creases is often mistaken for cracks. Restorative cleaning is performed by using Prep-4.4. It works by chemical reaction to emulsify soiling through its penetrating, lubricating and suspending power. Horsehair detailing Brush-1 is recommended to worked into heavily soiled areas sufficiently to avoid excessive agitation that might damage already weaken finishes especially on heavily used areas.
    1st phase - Restorative Cleaning:
    1. Apply Prep-4.4 and agitate with horsehair Brush-1, ensuring a uniform application over the entire surfaces a section at a time.
    2. Allow a dwell time of 10 to 30 minutes or before it dries prior to towel extraction until it shows clean.
    3. Sticky residue is removed by Cleaner-3.8 with gentle brush agitation and towel extracts until it shows clean.
    4. Remaining residues are spray rinse with Rinse-3.0 and towel extracts to a squeaky-clean.
    5. Let dry and inspect for satisfaction, otherwise repeat cleaning process as necessary or proceed to hydrating.
    2nd phase – Hydrating:
    Hydrating is essential to relax and separate the stick together collapsing fibrous structure. Its surfactantcy helps check for surface tension of blotchiness prior to fat and oil replenishing.
    1. Spray Hydrator-3.3 to saturate with an even appearance to soften up the leather.
    2. Let dwell 10 to 30 minutes and towel extract wick up soiling until it shows clean.
    3rd phase – Fat and Oil Replenishing:
    Fat and oil replenishing maintains the leather’s structure integrity and pliability thus strengthen these exposed leather from cracking.
    1. Spray Fatliquor-5.0 in like manner as Hydrator-3.3 and let dry naturally.
    2. Repeat application in between drying until saturated.
    3. The leather is left for slow natural drying for extra softness.
    4. Surface strays are wiped with Hydrator-3.3 to free of sticky residue.
    4th phase – Preventive Care:
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ spread with lint free towel and is ready for use when dry.

    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    info@LeatherDoctor.com

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Great info! I understand what you mean about coconut oil sealing up the leathers natural moisture wicking properties, could it also have an effect on the ionization properties as well, or is it more of just a sealing effect? Also, would you be willing to disclose what fats and oils are in your Fatliquor product? Are they based on a specific tannery's ingredients?

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Great info! I understand what you mean about coconut oil sealing up the leathers natural moisture wicking properties, could it also have an effect on the ionization properties as well, or is it more of just a sealing effect?

    You are right! It is only a sealing or stuffing effect.

    Coconut oil, olive oil and most other oils are non-ionic charged oils so does not hydrogen-bond with the protein fiber, instead just fills up the breathing pores that suffocates the leather from natural transpiration the effect of such oils is you will get sweaty feet as compared with Fatliquor-5.0. Fatliquor-5.0 hydrogen bond with the ionic positive (+ve) leather protein fiber with the fat that plumps the leather with fullness, the oils that lubricates the millions of interconnecting fibrils that slide over one another smoothly without breaking or cracks and the water contents evaporates that leave the natural leather transpiration for wearing comfort keeping the interior dry by evaporating foreign moisture contents from skin contacts.

    The fats and oils are ionic negative (-ve) charged with a pH value of 5.0 safe for all leather and suede types.

    Ingredients are non-hazardous, non-carcinogenic, non-irritant and non-sensitizing known causing effect.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 05-04-2014 at 02:52 PM.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Roger, so far I have done the Clean - Rinse - Hydrator - Fatliquor on my shoes. I can't believe how much the creases have relaxed. I didn't think that was possible. So my next question is if I don't get my shoes dirty, or overly wet or anything how frequently should I do the Hydrator - Fatliquor treatment? Is it time based, or contingent on how often I wear them?

    Also, will the ph of the leather be affected by very humid days in the summer? Will that cause breaking of the hydrogen bonds? Also, heat, will very hot days require more frequent attention?

    You mention using your products on the veg tanned linings too. Do those require the cleaning and rinsing, or just Hydrator? I am not sure of the ph of foot sweat, but just wondering how invasive of a job needs to be done to keep the linings healthy.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Roger, so far I have done the Clean - Rinse - Hydrator - Fatliquor on my shoes.
    I can't believe how much the creases have relaxed.
    I didn't think that was possible.


    Good if you show some pictures, perhaps I may give extra tips to it.


    >>> So my next question is if I don't get my shoes dirty, or overly wet or anything how frequently should I do the Hydrator - Fatliquor treatment?
    Is it time based, or contingent on how often I wear them?


    Fatliquor-5.0 is a volatile organic compound (VOC) thus will eventually dry up weather the shoe is on display or used.


    >>> Also, will the pH of the leather be affected by very humid days in the summer?
    When the shoe is in being used continuously during very humid summer days and sweat has accumulated as well and if it ferments with ammonia odor we will know that the protein leather fiber has shifted ionic negative (-ve).


    >>> Will that cause breaking of the hydrogen bonds?


    The odor alone will tells us that the breaking of the hydrogen bonds between the protein leather fibers and its other constituents especially the fatliquor takes place. The effect is that when the shoe becomes dry it will be stiffer. Trying to wear a stiff shoe and try to break-in will create unnatural creases ad wrinkles and further flexing will leads them to cracks.


    >>> Also, heat; will very hot days require more frequent attention?


    In such a situation when shoes has odor it is best to neutralize the ammonia odor with Acidifier-2.0 to bring back the pH of the protein leather fiber back to ionic positive (+ve) or protonating it.


    >>> You mention using your products on the veg tanned linings too.


    In hot summer days the caring of the shoe is to the inside leather lining.


    >>> Do those require the cleaning and rinsing, or just Hydrator-3.3?

    If there is soiling to the sole then Clean-3.8 > Rinse-3.0 it.
    When ammonia odor is detected use Acidifier-2.0 to neutralize it and protonate the protein fiber at the same time.
    Hydrator-3.3 can do the cleaning and rinsing and relaxing by itself follows with Fatliquor-5.0 to soften and strengthen it.


    >>> I am not sure of the pH of foot sweat,

    Fresh sweat is acidic to neutral, old fermented sweat becomes alkaline.


    >>> but just wondering how invasive of a job needs to be done to keep the linings healthy.

    As the natural bacteria from the atmosphere flourish is such conducive environment and produce a pungent odor – d’Bacteria-3.7 a leather-safe bactericide is used to kill them. Neglected and put aside may becomes mold infested and treatment is by d’Mold-3.6 a leather-safe fungicide to decontaminate them.


    Applying Protector-B+ to leather lining will give you a new experience as it lubricates it with a buttery-feel for a rub-resistant comfort with a classic leather scent that charms.


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    info@LeatherDoctor.com

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Once again, thank you! Another thing I am wondering is how long you need to let the hydrator sit before applying the fatliquor? Can it go on one after the other, for just regular maintenance purposes? Do I have to let it sit for a long time before applying the fatliquor? Also, how long should the fatliquor dwell before use again?

    Also, what is the difference between the Protector with the buttery feel vs. silky feel? Is there a difference in appearance?
    Last edited by patrickBOOTH; 05-15-2014 at 08:41 AM.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Another thing I am wondering is how long you need to let the Hydrator-3.3 sit before applying the Fatliquor-5.0?

    Fatliquor-5.0 is for below surface and it need to go through the leather finishes in most cases impede or obstruct penetration to a degree unless it is naked unfinished or pure-aniline. The entire surface has to be of an even color while preconditioning it with Hydrator-3.3. It depends on what wish to achieve, deep creases, wrinkles shrinkage, stains will require up to 72 hours to rectify them. Checking for surface tension will just need an eyeball test as long as it shows even appearance is suffice for routine fatliquoring.


    >>> Can it go on one after the other, for just regular maintenance purposes?


    Leather rejuvenating system process Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3
    Surface have to take on an even appearance with Hydrator-3.3 prior to Fatliquor-5.0 thereafter any surface remnants is work in with Hydrator-3.3.
    Application by spraying or foam brush to prevent overspray and it is best work by horsehair Brush-1 to evenly distribute them into the leather structure.
    As the leather water contents evaporates more is apply each session until the leather is fully saturated.


    >>> Do I have to let it sit for a long time before applying the Fatliquor-5.0?

    Dwell time duration depends on leather condition as Hydrator-3.3 plays multi roles, functions or purposes from as soon as it takes on an even appearance with horsehair Brush-1 to up to 72 hours to relax shrinkage, creases and wrinkles or colloidal movement within the leather structure for penetrated stains removal.
    A longer time dwell is always work in conjunction with stretchable paper towel as reservoir or a means for trapping the wicking stains instead of remaining on the leather surface.


    >>> Also, how long should the Fatliquor-5.0 dwell before use again?

    For a new shoe that is too tight or an old shoe that have shrunk too tight, wearing it while still damp help to stretch to the right size.
    Natural drying or slow drying results in more degree of suppleness with softness and strength.


    >>> Also, what is the difference between the Protector with the buttery feel vs. silky feel? Is there a difference in appearance?

    Buttery-feel with Protector B+ or B is recommended for aniline leathers with a gloss or satin topcoat.
    Silky-feel with Protector S+ or S is recommended for “pure aniline” or nubuck or napa-suede with a natural finish.
    Silky-feel may be used for gloss or satin finish topcoated but buttery-feel is not recommended for the finer more natural appearance of pure-aniline, nubuck or suede.
    Buttery-feel is recommended for the interior lining to reduce friction rubs for wearing comfort.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Hi Roger, I've been really pleased with taking care of my shoes using this system. I'm still insure how frequently I should be hydrating and fatliquoring. Should it be monthly? Bi weekly? Quarterly? I'm not sure how fast the fats and oils stay in the fibers until they evaporate. If I don't have a regular routine I fear I'll forget and have damage done and it's too late for them.

    Also, shell cordovan is a stuffed leather, is it advise able to use my tried and true coconut conditioner on them along with the hydrator, Fatliquor routine? Thank you!

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Should it be monthly? Bi weekly? Quarterly?

    I would think Quarterly may be more practical, however it depends on how much each application one used.
    The wearer will notice the different if the leather becomes too stiff or tight is a sign that hydrating > fatliquoring system will help to stretch and relax it.
    A more precise determination is to weight them or having a moisture meter to do the reading when dry.


    >>> Also, shell cordovan is a stuffed leather, is it advise able to use my tried and true coconut conditioner on them along with the hydrator, Fatliquor routine?

    What do you mean is a “stuffed” leather?

    You may put aside your coconut conditioner for some other usage.
    Coconut conditioner is not in anyway used in a modern tannery, Fatliquor-5.0 an ionic negative (-ve) charged fat, oil and water is – fat plumps the leather for fullness, oil lubricates for suppleness and water evaporates that leaves the leather for leather natural transpiration for wearing comfort – less sweaty feet. Coconut oil for shoes will have more sweaty feet!

    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    My stuffed, I mean that is the tanneries term for it. "hot stuffed". Horween has a definition chart here: http://horween.com/leathers/definitions/ Essentially unrefined oils are impregnated into it along with emulsified oils.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    Stuffing oils are non-ionic charged oils - stuff-in may also leaks out.

    Clogs or seal the inter-fibrillary spaces - more sweaty feet - darkening effect too on light colored leathers.

    Good if you could show some pictures for reference otherwise it may makes no sense why coconut oil (or extra virgin olive oil) is so good for whatever reason.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Pictures of the shoes? Here's one pair of the cordovan shoes. Just simple black shoes. I pretty much focus any treatment on where the shoe flexes.



    Also, what's the difference between coconut oil lubricating the interfibrilary spaces and the emulsion of Fatliquor? I know that the Fatliquor hydrogen bonds, but it also evaporates, whereas coconut oil has strong oxidative resistance. I fail to see why other than getting sweaty feet coconut oil being a "bad" conditioner.
    Last edited by patrickBOOTH; 05-31-2014 at 08:11 AM.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> I fail to see why other than getting sweaty feet coconut oil being a "bad" conditioner.

    You fail to see because it is "black".

    It is call "appearance" and you may have to test it out on light colored shoes to appreciate the difference.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 05-31-2014 at 09:28 AM.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    But if it's serving the same purpose (filling interfibrilary spaces) and doesn't oxidize fast how is that bad, other than for sweaty feet and appearance purposes?

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> But if it's serving the same purpose (filling interfibrilary spaces)

    Stuffing oil fill up the inter fibrillary spaces.
    Fatliqor hydrogen bond to the leather protein fiber WITHOUT filing up the inter fibrillary spaces as breathing pores for leather transpiration.


    >>> how is that bad

    I have constantly been ask how to remove unwanted oil stains including coconut and olive oil from light to medium color leathers, it must be bad otherwise why the dissatisfaction?

    Besides the darkening effect that clogs up the pores, unsaturated oils becomes browner in sunlight, sticky or gummy or even form hard films on oxidation by air.


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    info@LeatherDoctor.com
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 06-02-2014 at 10:47 AM.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    I understand now, but in terms of its lubrication ability it is fine, it seems like it is more of an aesthetic issue than integrity issue.

    The Hydrator is a truly amazing product. I can't believe its ability to pull creases out. How does it work? I mean, it must be different than just a lower ph liquid as your cleaner and rinse has an acidic ph, but behaves differently.

    I have a couple of friends who ordered your products after hearing about my success. You should put me on the payroll!

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    Thanks to know that it works! It is time that someone or company owns and market Leather Doctor and put me on the payroll instead, are you or your friends interested?


    >>> I understand now, but in terms of its lubrication ability it is fine, it seems like it is more of an aesthetic issue than integrity issue.


    Stuffing oils of all sorts and Fatliquor-5.0 may have comparable lubricating ability. Stuffing oils lack the fat component that plumps the leather with fullness and the water contents that leaves breathing pores free for leather natural transpiration.
    Stuffing oils tends to bleed or transfer when the surface of the leather comes into contact with other absorbent material especially of lighter color in warm surrounding.
    Comparatively, stuffed or impregnated leather usually contain larger amount of oil, are more waterproof and are greasier to handle than similar leather, which has been fatliquored. For shoe perhaps the utility advantage is more water resistant.


    >>> The Hydrator is a truly amazing product. I can't believe its ability to pull creases out. How does it work? I mean, it must be different than just a lower ph liquid as your cleaner and rinse has an acidic ph, but behaves differently.

    Hydrator-3.3 works like our chiropractor; it relaxes and plumps the uneven tension from compression and stretch back to its equilibrium. It works efficiently when the whole thickness of the leather structure is fully saturated and allows dwelling capability up to 72 hours with control evaporation. It is the surface-active-agents component that does the work; its leather-safe pH value is to work in harmony with the pH value of the leather itself within the same range to ensure leather pH chemistry integrity. Besides pulling of creases out it have other multi fold functions.

    Hydrator-3.3 multi functional abilities include:
    a) to check for surface tension for an even appearance free from blotchiness prior to fatliquor replenishing.
    b) To plumps, relaxes and separates crushed, shrunk and stick together fibrils for manipulating away-unwanted creases and wrinkles.
    c) To rectify alkaline overexposure areas by facilitating colloidal water movement to redistribute the leather constituents from surrounding areas.
    d) To activate the dormant dyestuff within the leather structure for color refreshing.
    e) To facilitates colloidal water movement within the inter-fibrillary spaces for wicking foreign soiling particulates to resurface.
    f) To stabilize, pH balance and charge the protein fiber below its iso-electric point (pI) ionic positive to hydrogen bond with the ionic negative fatliquor more effectively. This universal Hydrator-3.3 is for all leather types including pigmented, aniline, vachetta, nubuck, suede, hair-on-hide and woolskin.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    How much do you want for the company?

    Have you ever considered trying out this technology and logic in the cosmetics business? I wonder if the hydrator-fatliquor system can replace my mothers wrinkle cream. What do you think?

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Have you ever considered trying out this technology and logic in the cosmetics business?

    There are too many players in the cosmetics business, too late for me!


    >>> I wonder if the hydrator-fatliquor system can replace my mothers wrinkle cream. What do you think?

    I do not think Sarah the wife of Abraham uses such cream – with her natural youthfulness - at 65 years old Sarah was impressive to Pharoah and at 90 years old even in the presence of Abimelech. We may have to look into our DNA to find the answer for natural youthfulness or a mystical “Shangri la” that we may live and never grow old.

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    If oils are non-polar, how is it the oils and fats in Fatliquor has a negative ionic charge? Is it somehow chemically engineered?

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> If oils are non-polar, how is it the oils and fats in Fatliquor has a negative ionic charge? Is it somehow chemically engineered?


    So negative (-ve) ionic charged fatliquor must obviously be from polar oils, when cut or mixed with distilled water forms a stable emulsion and looks like fresh milk while non-polar oils when mixed will later separates back to its original color.

    Leather protein fiber is an amphoteric material, while its leather constituents like the basic tanning agents, dyestuff and fatliquor are non-amphoteric.

    Amphoteric material is influence by fluctuation of pH value and any value below its isoelectric point or pH neutral or pI will shift the protein fiber ionic positive (+ve). The stronger the ionic attraction the more lasting is the hydrogen bonding between the protein fiber and its other ionic negative (-ve) leather constituents. This is how Hydrator-3.3 > Fatliquor-5.0 > Hydrator-3.3 system is chemically engineered or designed to match the amphoteric characteristic of the leather protein fiber for both below and above surface to achieve the best result in pH chemistry integrity from denaturing the leather or reverting it to rawhide, ease of application, functionality that plumps and lubricates for softness and strength, seasoning appearance without blotchiness or darkening effect and imparting a non-greasy or sticky tactile-feel when dry.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 06-12-2014 at 03:08 PM.

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Hi Roger! Question: You have said in the past that the Fatliquor contains VOC's. I was under the impression that VOC's are generally some kind of distillate like turpentine, or limonene. You're saying that the VOC's will evaporate out, but I didn't know fats and oils could "evaporate". Do the fats and oils in your fatliquor oxidize, or simply evaporate? Do they need to be stripped after a while if oxidation takes place?

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> Fatliquor contains VOC's.

    The fat and oil component are VOC (volatile organic compound).


    >>> You're saying that the VOC's will evaporate out, but I didn't know fats and oils could "evaporate".


    I often need to top-up my car engine oil even though no signs of leaking – heat may have vaporized them – I guess.


    >>> Do the fats and oils in your fatliquor oxidize, or simply evaporate?

    Fatliquor does not oxidize they simply evaporate.


    >>> Do they need to be stripped after a while if oxidation takes place?


    Unless it is visible know as ‘leather spew” not cause by oxidation but extreme temperature fluctuation and heat alone will dissipate it back into and below the leather structure. Stripping them as necessary is an option if only it distorts appearances.


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Hi Roger! A couple more questions if you don't mind. I don't understand how the fats and oils "hydrogen bond" with the leather's protein fibers. You've made it clear they are non-polar, so how does that happen? Is it the water that is hydrogen bonding? My guess is the hydrogen that makes up the water is what is bonding, correct?

    How is it that these oils and fats evaporate, when oil and fat rancidification and oxidation occurs with some? Are the fats and oils in your fatliquor somehow engineered to not stick around and oxidize, but rather evaporate?

    What is the life of your products? With the cap on will they last a long time, or will they lose effectiveness, or evaporate? Thanks so much!

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    >>> You've made it clear they are non-polar

    Correction, products mentioned are polars – behaves like magnet – like poles repels and unlike poles repels.
    At the molecular level it hydrogen bond like water H20.


    >>> My guess is the hydrogen that makes up the water is what is bonding, correct?

    Water exist in three forms ice, water and steam and the molecular bonding structure changes.


    >>> How is it that these oils and fats evaporate, when oil and fat rancidification and oxidation occurs with some?

    Heat causes evaporation sometimes, breaking of hydrogen bonding when the amphoteric leather protein fibers shift from ionic positive (+ve) to ionic negative (-ve). Any solution that has a pH higher then the neutral pH or iso-electric point or pI will cause a shift to the leather protein fiber.
    That’s the reason we say that leather is pH sensitive and when it breaks bonds with its leather constituents it denatures or revert to rawhide.


    >>> Are the fats and oils in your fatliquor somehow engineered to not stick around and oxidize, but rather evaporate?

    When hydrogen bond it sticks and becomes part of leather.
    When the ionic attraction weakens it becomes fugitive – just like the melting ice by temperature – leather by pH value differences


    >>> What is the life of your products? With the cap on will they last a long time, or will they lose effectiveness, or evaporate?

    With its cap tight and put in room temperature it will last a long time.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Koh View Post
    >>> You've made it clear they are non-polar

    Correction, products mentioned are polars – behaves like magnet – like poles repels and unlike poles repels.
    At the molecular level it hydrogen bond like water H20.
    The fatliquor is polar, yes, but it includes ingredients such as fat and oil, which are non-polar. If fat and oil is non-polar how is it hydrogen bonding to the leather protein? Is the emulsifier what is binding, or the added water (which contains hydrogen)?

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    Correction as underlined:
    The fatliquor is polar, yes, but it includes ingredients such as fat and oil, which were “ORIGINALLY” non-polar.

    Selected fat and oil is then ionic charged and calibrated to its desired pH value.
    Thus Fatliquor-5.0 attains its anionic pH value of 5.0.
    Concentrated ionic charged fat and oil after processing has to be cut or mixed with 5 parts of distilled water prior to use.
    In a waterbased emulsion, the charged fat and oil becomes encased in water molecules just like fresh milk.
    When the water encased negative (-ve) charged fat and oil molecule hydrogen bond with the leather protein ionic positive (+ve) charged fibrils, the water breaks free and wicks up to the leather surface.

    To increase its hydrogen bonding or ionic attraction effect, the amphoteric leather protein fiber is further charged below its iso-electric point (pH 3 – 5) using any of these products Acidifier-2.0 or Hydrator-3.3 (the suffix number denotes the products pH value).


    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor
    Roger@LeatherDoctor.com

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2

    Default

    this was a big help and so interesting to read

  51. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
    Posts
    4,573

    Default

    Dear Steve,

    Yes this topic is interesting . . .

    The below quoted question was posted on 06-08-2014 by patrickBooth . . .

    “>>> Have you ever considered trying out this technology and logic in the cosmetics business?
    I wonder if the hydrator-fatliquor system can replace my mothers wrinkle cream.
    What do you think?”


    Time has catch-up, and I need these magical wrinkle creams myself too.
    As to date I have researched and developed 7 new products for both skin-care and hair-care besides all those for leather care.

    One of these dermatological skin care product, Acne-X is to exfoliate aging skin and tighten up wrinkling facial skin tissue and it work on me.

    You may want to ask, how it works?

    I will share with you, as am happy with the result, that why you see me signing off with picture from now . . .

    Name:  RogerKoh-email.jpg
Views: 24
Size:  22.7 KB
    Roger Koh
    Leather, Skin & Hair Care System Formulator
    Consultant / Practitioner / Instructor / Coaching
    web: www.leatherdoctor.com
    forum: www.leathercleaningrestorationforum.com
    email: roger@leatherdoctor.com

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •