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Thread: BMW Z3 - Recovering from failed recoloring via Roger the Leather Doctor!!

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Default BMW Z3 - Recovering from failed recoloring via Roger the Leather Doctor!!

    Here's a very brief history...
    Attempted recoloring w/ another product. Followed instructions, attempted 2-3 times per seat & always had adhesion failure (it removed so easily not much stress on the leather). In my search for adhesion, it led me to Roger the Leather Doctor! Reading a few of his replies assures that this is truly the only way to properly restore leather & that you're working with someone who will help & absolutely qualified to help. The products for the project are en route so...more to come...

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    Hey roger! Here are a few questions about Color/Top coat application:
    (These are from your descriptions page per kit)

    Im in ORANGE
    COLOR COATING:
    Is it a "milky" consistency?
    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    Shake well & filter color before application?
    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    What is considered "dry time between coats"? Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?
    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure? To high, to low PSI, to thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?

    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    Would a gentle "rub-in" w/ a foam brush for first coat help adhesion?
    Does coverage determine how many coats needed?
    Does the Fine dry atomize dispersion cover better, so fewer coats needed?

    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    Fine dry atomize dispersion - explain this technique.
    I sprayed at 25 PSI for ALS color (a bit thicker than "milky" consistancy) & a little less PSI for ALS topcoat (a bit thinner than "milky" consistancy).

    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.
    Indeed spray for coverage w/ light coats until coverage attained.
    Is there a target thickness for color coat?


    TOP COATING:
    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    What is considered "dry time between coats"? Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?

    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure? To high, to low PSI, to thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?
    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    For airbrush app what PSI?
    Filter top coat before application?

    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    Visually dry? Place back of hand to surface & if cold it's still wet??
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.

    Rub-Resistant Protection:
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready
    for use when dry.
    One coat?
    Whats est dry time?

    It's at this point ALS requires(?) 72 hr - no moisture dry/cure time before conditioning or use.

    Wheeew, I sound like a 5 yr old w/ all the questions! Sorry about that but inquiring minds...Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Reply in *Green
    Im in ORANGE
    COLOR COATING:
    Is it a "milky" consistency?
    *Pigment-64 has a higher viscosity and Micro-54 has a lower viscosity.
    To achieve the same result example Pigment-64 may takes 2 coating while Micro-54 may take an extra coating or two. When spray on vertical panel flow, drips or streaks may be an issue, thus is overcome with up to 10% of Thickener-48 to the mix especially for Micro-54. Advantage of using Micro-54 is the finer build-up of layers too as chances of producing a plastiky look is drastically reduced.


    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    *Yes, all water-based products are dilute-able with distilled water. Flow control is adjustable with Thicknener-48 up to 10% to the mix to stabilize the colloidal color coating.

    Shake well & filter color before application?
    *Check the bottom of the clear plastic bottle before poring it out or throw in a glass marble to help in the mix.
    Use a nylon stocking to filter through before airbrushing ensures trouble free spraying.


    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    *In case of drips, dust or flies that stick to the drying finishes, pick up with forceps and sand it as necessary, a fine sanding ensure a proper adhesion for the next spray as well. This fine sanding also assure good adhesion, fail adhesion if any will immediately show.

    What is considered "dry time between coats"?
    *When coating is strong enough to take on fine sanding (2000grit) it is dry enough for the next spray.

    Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?
    *A hair dryer helps to facilitate drying by appearance and fine sanding as above as a test for the next spray.

    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure?
    *It is the preparation during “wet” and “dry” phase that may contribute to adhesion failure.
    In your case for redoing fail adhesion using other products, the existing black coloring is to be stripped with Stripper-2.3 down to the original blue coloring. The blue existing finishes is then degrease with Degreaser-2.2 > Rinse-3.0 system and preferably the existing blue finishes is further cut down by sanding, otherwise the additional coloring builds up may too un-natural in appearance.


    Too high, too low PSI, too thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?
    *A higher psi is better to atomize the spray giving a finer spray.
    Too thick a spray is not recommended.
    Facilitating drying with heat dryer recommended between coat – quick and long is not a concern – but drying and sand ability will gives us a good hint that all is well so far as we progress.


    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    Would a gentle "rub-in" w/ a foam brush for first coat help adhesion?
    *Adhesor-73 is the pre-conditioner to color coating and is best done by foam brushing or padding with lint free towel. Rub-in is not necessary as it may produce streaks that make correction ends up too thick. Micro-54 is preferred to reduce unnecessary build-up of color coating. Note that thicker coating will cause more problems on adhesion than a thinner coating.

    Does coverage determine how many coats needed?
    *Depending on product usage as I have introduced Micro-54, coverage is by eyesight and remembering the number of spray to produce consistency throughout. Over coating does not help both in performance and appearance, thus I prefer to use Micro-54.

    Does the Fine dry atomize dispersion cover better, so fewer coats needed?
    *Yes and Micro-54 with an auxiliary mix of Thickener-48 up to 10% helps in the result finesse.

    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    Fine dry atomize dispersion - explain this technique.
    *A standard air gun have flow and air adjustment control knob – reduce intake of product and increase air volume will produce a dryer spray for better fine coverage, thus reduce thickness of overall coatings.

    I sprayed at 25 PSI for ALS color (a bit thicker than "milky" consistancy) & a little less PSI for ALS topcoat (a bit thinner than "milky" consistancy).
    *Too low a pressure does not atomize the product adequately thus becomes too thick and may produce mediocre result both in performance and appearance.

    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.
    Indeed spray for coverage w/ light coats until coverage attained.
    *Make sure that there is a flow in the first coating that it form a continuous film over the Adhesor-73 coating as the foundation.

    Is there a target thickness for color coat?
    *Less and finer, as long as it cover the existing unwanted blue suffice. Unnecessary thickness build up only gives instability to the overall film coating.


    TOP COATING:
    Can it be diluted w/ distilled water if needed?
    *Use MicroTop-54 instead a finer coating with better control for finesses.

    Between coats Sand gently w/ 1000-2000 grit if needed?
    *Sanding is to correct surface feel to the touch, any lumps is sand prior to the next coating.

    What is considered "dry time between coats"? Visibly dry surface or a specific time between coats?
    *Heat blower helps dry time and when coating is strong enough to take on fine sanding (2000grit) it is dry enough for the next spray.

    Can the way it's sprayed contribute to adhesion failure? To high, to low PSI, to thick, spray time between coats, spraying to quick or waiting to long between coats?
    *Topcoat spraying does not contribute in any way to adhesion failure. Adhesion failure may be due to poor “wet” or “dry” preparation – Degreaser-2.2 > Rinse-30 system will reduce such possibilities. Existing finishes is recommended to cut down with sanding, otherwise unnatural build-up produce poor leather appearance. Next is the rub-in with Adhesor-73 prior to color coating.

    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    For airbrush app what PSI?
    *At a higher psi of 80 to 100 will produce a finer atomization for better coverage with better flow control without streaking especially vertical panels.

    Filter topcoat before application?
    *Use nylon stocking to filter any coagulating if any after a proper shake up with glass marble prior to pouring out of bottle, check the bottom as well.

    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    Visually dry? Place back of hand to surface & if cold it's still wet??
    *Use heat dryer, dries faster, cures faster.
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.

    Rub-Resistant Protection:
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready
    for use when dry.
    One coat?
    *Foam brush to redistribute after spray for even appearance.

    Whats est dry time?
    *Heat blow-dries it and it is ready for use.

    It's at this point ALS requires (?) 72 hr - no moisture dry/cure time before conditioning or use.
    *This is an extra precaution for natural drying; speed heat drying in-between spray coating helps reduce this dry/cure time. Preferably Protector-B+ is applied after the finishes is dry/cured.
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-09-2014 at 11:32 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Got it. Now about those appliction instructions...
    I'm in green (+)

    Reply in Purple (*)

    Instruction:

    Stripping Existing Deteriorating Finishes:
    1. Cover and tape off frames, trims and protect flooring.
    2. Mist sprays Stripper-2.3, Eraser-4 scrub with help of 2000-grit sandpaper feathering out seamlessly and towel extract for an even appearance.

    + Use the eraser & 2000 grit sandpaper?
    + What is expected?
    * Eraser-4 produces traction power & 2000grit sandpaper produces abrasive power.

    + Is the goal to remove all existing color?
    * Existing color by 2000grit sandpaper removes weakens or deteriorated finishes.
    Ideally is to remove all existing color when there is a desire for color change.
    The reduction of existing finishes allows better Hydrator-3.3 penetration to ease creases and wrinkles; otherwise from the reverse suede side is one possibility. The other advantage of existing finishes reduction with a lower grit sanding device is preventing unnecessary finishes build-up from the leather crust to reduce a unnatural plastiky appearance.


    + If so how to tell if enough is removed?
    * Existing finishes removal is monitor by appearance, before reaching the leather crust.

    + What exactly is feathering out? Feather edge sanding?
    * Feathering out is to reduce contrasting edges so that it merges seamlessly as one.


    Degreasing:
    1. Shake /Degreaser-2.2 to gel prior to use with a repeat shake and rest until it gels.
    2. Transfer to Eraser-4; agitate to saturate the stain, feather out to the entire section.

    + What exactly is feathering out entire section? Feather edge sanding?
    * All most all leather seats are makes out of section or panel and feathering is not necessary to go beyond any section. From case to case, the need to go beyond the section is subjective. A thorough work would be the entire seat as a whole or has to be symmetric at least for appearance.

    3. Towel extracts suspended soiling after 10 to 30 minutes or before it dries until it shows clean.
    + Wait 10-30 min & before it drys wipe to extract until surface is clean?
    * Towels that does not pick up anymore soiling may be a better reference for a complete suspended soil removal until that point.

    4. Spray Acidifier-2.0, towel extract until it shows clean to a healthy squeak.
    + Rinse w/ Acidifier-2.0 & wipe until extracted & surface is clean?
    * Rather check with the towel as well if it does pick up anymore soiling.


    Hydrating:

    + Would this be used for lessening wrinkles, like the bolster of my seat?
    * Your seat at this time looks too plastiky with a too thick a finish, thus not possible the Hydrator-3.3 to penetrate through the finishes. Any liquid that pools on its surface would not reach the leather thickness to lessen any wrinkles.

    1. Spray Hydrator-3.3 saturating the stain area and feather out for an even appearance.
    + How’s this done on vertical area?
    * The vertical areas are done with help of stretchable paper towel to act as reservoir for the slow absorption from the leather. Reducing the thickness of the finishes helps in the penetration, if any liquid pools on the surface it is also difficult for the Hydrator-3.3 to penetrate into the leather thickness.

    2. Covering with tissue paper without airspace to trap wick up stains instead of remaining on the leather surface as it dries. 3. Peel tissue paper when crispy dry and use Eraser-4 to erase surface residue prior to fat and oil replenishing.
    + Apply direct to surface leaving no space between…?
    *All airspace between has to be stretch out with horsehair Brush-1 and sufficient moisture level for surface tight contact as an extension of the leather surface.

    “Peel tissue paper when crispy dry”
    + does that mean to remove when completely dry?
    * When stretchable paper is done properly, it will shrink back and tightens its coverage and need to be peel off would also indicates that it is well done for its intended effectiveness.

    “use Eraser-4 to erase surface residue”
    + does that mean: sand lightly w/ eraser to remove excess & smooth surface.
    * It means use only Eraser-4 to erase surface residue if any that may have resurface from the thickness of the leather during the wicking process.


    Fat and Oil Replenishing:
    1. Spray Fatliquor-5.0 and redistribute with foam brush until saturation.
    + Saturation means to cover entire surface completely?
    Fatliquor-5.0 is design for the thickness of the leather structure that is below surface but initially has to go from either the front or the reverse suede side. Certainly it has to cover the entire surface completely, but the surface is only the entry point and should not remain there at all when dry. Any surface remnants have to be completely removed.

    2. Repeat application each time water contents evaporate until fully saturated.
    + If surface dries reapply?
    *Yes, as water contents evaporates leaving the fat and oil behind into the leather structure, more is applied at each evaporation cycle. Leather softness and strength depends on the fat and oil contents up to 14% when completely dry – with a moisture meter to read the moisture content.

    3. Drive remaining surface remnants free of milky fat and oil until it turns clear with Hydrator-3.3.
    “Drive remaining surface remnants free”
    + does that mean: Spray Hydrator-3.3 to saturate & rinse clean?
    * Correct, Hydrator-3.3 will further charge the amphoteric protein fiber ionic positive [+ve] thus creating more sites for the ionic negative [-ve] Fatliquor-5.0 for hydrogen bonding attraction.

    4. Allow natural drying for extra softness.
    + Let it air dry? Est how long?
    * How long is a subject of psychometrics – relative humidity, amount of water in the air, methods of drying.
    Practical experience is by observing appearance of the leather; pre-rejuvenating appearance, during appearance and drying appearance should goes back to pre-rejuvenating appearance. Natural air movement will helps facilitate drying, but again the slower the drying the softer is the leather from experience.


    More to come...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    21

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    Dry Prep:

    1. Erase wick-up residue with Eraser-4 prior to repairs.
    +Should surface be completely dry before repairing/coloring?
    +Any other surface cleaning before repairing/coloring?

    Structural Repairs:

    1. Apply Impregnator-26 to weak and worn areas for tightening and restremgthening where necessary.
    +Examples of "Weak & worn areas" & where this is neccesary.
    +How is this applied?
    +Dry time?
    +Any other surface cleaning before coloring?

    Adhesion Promotion Coating:

    1. Apply Adhesor-73 by foam brush to seal surface uneven absorption rate and promote adhesion simultaneously.
    +Apply everywhere color coat is being applied?
    +Minimum dry time before color coat?

    Color Coating:

    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.
    +How many coats is recomended?
    +Dry time between coats?
    +2000 grit sanding between coats?

    Topcoating:

    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    +Same PSI as coloring?
    +Filter mix before application?
    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    +Wipe surface w/ lint free towel to level & remove drips/streaks?
    +2000 grit sanding ok?
    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.
    +After all coats are applied & dry?

    Rub-Resistant Protection:

    +Wait how long after coloring application to apply?
    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready for use when dry.
    +How many coats?
    +Apply additional coats to high friction/rub area?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greater Vancouver, Canada.
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    Reply in '* purple'

    Dry Prep:

    1. Erase wick-up residue with Eraser-4 prior to repairs.

    +Should surface be completely dry before repairing/coloring?
    * Surface is preferably completely dry as not to reduce the strength of any water-based products.

    +Any other surface cleaning before repairing/coloring?
    * Surface cleaning as necessary is in conjunction with sanding and Stripper-2.3 to reduce existing unwanted finishes, otherwise the additional build-up may have a “plasticky” appearance away from the natural grain of the leather already observed.


    Structural Repairs:

    1. Apply Impregnator-26 to weak and worn areas for tightening and restremgthening where necessary.
    +Examples of "Weak & worn areas" & where this is neccesary.
    * Existing pictures does not show any “weak and worn areas”.

    +How is this applied?
    * Direct application with help of horsehair Brush-1 to drive the product in beneath the surface and into the leather structure.

    +Dry time?
    * Heat blower helps facilitate fast drying.

    +Any other surface cleaning before coloring?
    * To prevent any surface buildup a damp towel wipe off any surface remnants. Heat blower dries it and fine sanding before Adhesor-73 application.


    Adhesion Promotion Coating:

    1. Apply Adhesor-73 by foam brush to seal surface uneven absorption rate and promote adhesion simultaneously.

    +Apply everywhere color coat is being applied?
    * Correct, this is both an adhesion coating as well as sealing the leather surface for even porosity.

    +Minimum dry time before color coat?
    * Heat blower to facilitate drying – when surface is sandable it is coatable.


    Color Coating:

    1. Apply Pigment-64 by foam brush, varnishing brush or airbrushing for professional result.
    2. Fine dry atomize dispersion with more air is achieve with 80 to 100psi of air pressure.
    3. Light spray is preferred and let dry in between coats to build up colorcoat.

    +How many coats are recommended?
    * Coatings depend on how wet or dry is the application – less is better as long as it produce an even appearance of good coverage. Thickener-48 recommended for adjusting viscosity and controlling flow during airbrushing.

    +Dry time between coats?
    * Heat blower facilitates drying time and as long as it is sandable, it is coatable.

    +2000 grit sanding between coats?
    This fine grit is recommended to control


    Topcoating:

    1. Shake the product well and apply by airbrushing for professional result.
    +Same PSI as coloring?
    * Increase PSI for a lower viscosity product to maintain the same atomization.

    +Filter mix before application?
    * Filter mix to catch any duller not properly dissolved with standard paint filter or nylon stocking.

    2. Use lint free paper towel to even out drips and streaks.
    +Wipe surface w/ lint free towel to level & remove drips/streaks?
    * Accidental drips from sprayer is blot with lint free paper towel from kit.

    +2000 grit sanding ok?
    * 2000grit sanding is suitable for in-between coating feel adjustment or correction.

    3. Speed dries between coats with help of hair dryer.
    4. 2000-grit sanding may applies to improve touch and appearance.
    +After all coats are applied & dry?
    * Sanding in-between coats, final coat not recommended.


    Rub-Resistant Protection:

    +Wait how long after coloring application to apply?
    * May be applied with the same duration of drying time as of precedent coating.

    1. Mist sprays Protector-B+ redistribute with a foam brush / paper towel and ready for use when dry.
    +How many coats?
    * Depends on wetness of coating, foam brush or lint free towel helps spread for even distribution.

    +Apply additional coats to high friction/rub area?
    * Apply after existing coating is dry. Thereafter the seat is ready to use when dry to the touch.



    Roger Koh
    Leather Care Consultant
    www.LeatherDoctor.com
    Last edited by Roger Koh; 03-14-2014 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    21

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    Is there anything you recommend to use on "high" friction/rub areas(the bolsters top & bottom of both seats) to help maintain their "integrity"? I was thinking to add an additional coat of Rub-Resistant Protection, top coat or structural repair(even though no worn areas exist) to help as precautionary.

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